1 00:00:00,870 --> 00:00:05,730 Adam Curry: podcasting 2.0 for December 8 2023, episode 158 2 00:00:05,910 --> 00:00:10,890 sangoma, Jager. Oh hello, everybody. Welcome to the 3 00:00:10,890 --> 00:00:14,520 official board meeting for podcasting 2.0 This is where it 4 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:17,790 all goes down. In fact, we are the only boardroom that doesn't 5 00:00:17,790 --> 00:00:21,330 do interview predictions because we are in the future. I'm Adam 6 00:00:21,330 --> 00:00:23,940 curry here in the heart of the Texas Hill Country and Alabama. 7 00:00:24,090 --> 00:00:27,660 The man who fights the scrapers every day like a junkyard dog. 8 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:30,150 Say hello to my friend on the other end, the one and only Mr. 9 00:00:30,150 --> 00:00:32,430 Dave Jones. 10 00:00:33,780 --> 00:00:36,600 Dave Jones: Like Junkyard Dog junkyard, new Junkyard Dog, man, 11 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:38,040 Adam Curry: Junkyard Dog, junkyard dog. 12 00:00:38,160 --> 00:00:40,770 Dave Jones: This just, you caught me off guard because I 13 00:00:40,770 --> 00:00:45,450 just realized I didn't tweet it into what you said. You said rip 14 00:00:45,450 --> 00:00:48,660 it. I know. But I had this right after I fell out of my chair. So 15 00:00:48,660 --> 00:00:49,110 I'm not 16 00:00:50,220 --> 00:00:53,040 Adam Curry: discombobulated. Dave has eaten so many beef 17 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:55,620 milkshakes, and he's breaking chairs. Now. It's crazy. 18 00:00:55,950 --> 00:00:58,170 Dave Jones: Yeah, I mean, like it leaned over to get the shake, 19 00:00:58,170 --> 00:01:01,620 and it was just like, pop and all sudden, I was like, fighting 20 00:01:01,620 --> 00:01:02,910 this and to not land in the floor. 21 00:01:02,940 --> 00:01:05,010 Adam Curry: I wish I wish I'd been recording it because that's 22 00:01:05,010 --> 00:01:07,740 exactly what a sight and it was like, oh, conclusion. conclave 23 00:01:07,740 --> 00:01:11,580 was like this big, clanking, clanking crash. And it was very 24 00:01:11,580 --> 00:01:14,070 Dave Jones: interesting. Lots of stuff happened before the show. 25 00:01:14,070 --> 00:01:16,140 You sound terrible. Yeah, 26 00:01:16,290 --> 00:01:19,830 Adam Curry: yes. Yeah, we're gonna what do we have? I'm gonna 27 00:01:19,830 --> 00:01:27,150 say RSB will it be the code Come on, come on big money. Big 28 00:01:27,150 --> 00:01:34,770 money. Big money. Bola Ebola. Black? See got black? Yeah, I 29 00:01:34,770 --> 00:01:38,430 think it's either. I mean, we went to Minneapolis for no 30 00:01:38,430 --> 00:01:41,790 agenda meet 130 people was fantastic. In and out one one 31 00:01:41,790 --> 00:01:46,140 day. Really cool. Fly. Yeah, well, I didn't fly myself. We 32 00:01:46,140 --> 00:01:51,120 flew southwest. Okay. And it was dynamite. But you know, you're 33 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:55,020 shaking 130 hands and you're taking selfies. I'm gonna say 34 00:01:55,530 --> 00:01:59,580 that's where you can possibly get some kind of diseased human 35 00:01:59,580 --> 00:02:02,070 resource breathing down my neck. Either that or just the 36 00:02:02,070 --> 00:02:04,080 airplane? I don't know. I'm trying not to get to sick. 37 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:04,860 That's the main thing. 38 00:02:05,970 --> 00:02:09,630 Dave Jones: Cuz you know, are you what's the what? What are 39 00:02:09,660 --> 00:02:12,150 you haven't been flying lately? No, notice this. 40 00:02:13,260 --> 00:02:17,700 Adam Curry: Now we flew to Houston. Yeah, I haven't had any 41 00:02:17,700 --> 00:02:21,480 destinations. Really? Yeah, I mean, Houston. Houston would 42 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:25,620 have been a good one. But I you know, I had the pastor and his 43 00:02:25,620 --> 00:02:29,700 wife. So we had someone else fly us in a little bit bigger plane. 44 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:36,030 Still Still turboprop. You know, I be honest with you, Dave. I'm 45 00:02:36,030 --> 00:02:42,210 59 I fly with my buddy. Mitch, who's my periodontist? 46 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:44,460 Dave Jones: Yeah, it's because you bought his planes got 47 00:02:44,460 --> 00:02:44,610 bought? 48 00:02:44,610 --> 00:02:48,360 Adam Curry: Yeah, base. And, and you know, we're flying out to 49 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:52,380 Dallas. And just the amount of I mean, I can fly I can I can do 50 00:02:52,380 --> 00:02:56,550 all of this. The amount of traffic and stuff and the 51 00:02:56,550 --> 00:03:00,690 attentiveness and, you know, the understanding of the situational 52 00:03:00,690 --> 00:03:03,780 awareness of any airport, I would go to, I mean, you're 53 00:03:03,780 --> 00:03:07,050 still going to we're going to Houston or Dallas, even San 54 00:03:07,050 --> 00:03:10,290 Antonio, I mean, it's all going to be within these areas that 55 00:03:10,290 --> 00:03:13,500 are heavily congested, lots of airports, lots of traffic. And 56 00:03:13,500 --> 00:03:16,980 if you screw up, you know, which can be a hesitation when the air 57 00:03:16,980 --> 00:03:19,380 controller asks something, you know, you get put in the penalty 58 00:03:19,380 --> 00:03:22,350 box fly 20 minutes that way, we'll talk to you later. You 59 00:03:22,350 --> 00:03:25,350 know, it's really Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, they got they got a 60 00:03:25,350 --> 00:03:28,980 lot going on. You know, they got all kinds of, I'm slow. You 61 00:03:28,980 --> 00:03:31,110 know, I'm always going to be slower than than any of the big 62 00:03:31,110 --> 00:03:35,250 boys. So I'm just thinking, you know, maybe I should just have 63 00:03:35,250 --> 00:03:39,270 someone else fly. It's better that way. It's just it's a 64 00:03:39,270 --> 00:03:42,450 little much. You know, I I'm pretty good with the with the 65 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:47,460 audio mixer. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's 45 years. I can do that. 66 00:03:47,490 --> 00:03:50,010 You know, I'll just do boosted ground balls instead of flying. 67 00:03:52,260 --> 00:03:56,430 Dave Jones: Yeah, make a career change. Yeah. Is, are you? I 68 00:03:56,430 --> 00:03:59,190 mean, how bad is your illness? Are you? Are you feverish? 69 00:03:59,250 --> 00:04:01,440 Adam Curry: Uh, yeah. I mean, I was coughing all night. My 70 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:07,650 throat hurts. My body aches. That's about it. So I know. Oh, 71 00:04:07,650 --> 00:04:10,020 you might have COVID Yeah, mind, but I'm not going to test. 72 00:04:10,410 --> 00:04:11,010 That's fine. 73 00:04:11,940 --> 00:04:15,660 Dave Jones: Don't do. Don't do testing around here anymore. For 74 00:04:15,660 --> 00:04:16,530 any No, no. 75 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:19,019 Adam Curry: Do we have home kits but I'm not I'm not going to 76 00:04:19,019 --> 00:04:21,119 touch it. I'm just, you know, give me some Advil. I'm good to 77 00:04:21,119 --> 00:04:22,979 go. Advil, the 78 00:04:23,010 --> 00:04:27,540 Dave Jones: the, the PDF. The pediatrician literally told us 79 00:04:27,540 --> 00:04:29,580 like a year ago, they're like now we don't really test for 80 00:04:29,580 --> 00:04:32,160 COVID anymore because it's it screws up people's school 81 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:32,700 schedule. 82 00:04:33,690 --> 00:04:38,220 Adam Curry: Exactly. Exactly. Anyway, it's been a very 83 00:04:38,250 --> 00:04:42,390 powerful week in podcasting. A lot of interesting articles that 84 00:04:42,390 --> 00:04:46,110 have come out, based upon the news, which is this 85 00:04:46,140 --> 00:04:49,110 Unknown: one out of every six employees of Spotify won't be 86 00:04:49,110 --> 00:04:51,960 around next year, the company's making those deep cuts to its 87 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:55,230 payroll as it looks to cut expenses. top executives blame 88 00:04:55,230 --> 00:04:58,020 higher interest rates saying that they make borrowing for 89 00:04:58,020 --> 00:05:00,420 capital expenditures more expensive. The affected 90 00:05:00,420 --> 00:05:03,510 employees will receive several months severance. The cut 91 00:05:03,510 --> 00:05:06,240 follows two previous layoffs this year, a total of 800 92 00:05:06,420 --> 00:05:09,120 employees were let go. Now. 93 00:05:09,540 --> 00:05:12,090 Adam Curry: I'm pretty sure that's exactly what we were 94 00:05:12,090 --> 00:05:15,930 talking about that it's like they have no capital, that the 95 00:05:15,930 --> 00:05:19,020 cost of capital is too expensive because of the you know, the 96 00:05:19,020 --> 00:05:21,450 free money riders oversee exactly what we've been saying 97 00:05:21,450 --> 00:05:23,760 for a whole year, for a whole year. 98 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,540 Dave Jones: And yeah, yeah, it's worth I think it's worth talking 99 00:05:27,540 --> 00:05:31,230 about. Because we've been using this term, the free money is 100 00:05:31,230 --> 00:05:34,500 gone. And, you know, people have been talking about this. I 101 00:05:34,500 --> 00:05:38,040 think, one is some article a while back used the term, like 102 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:40,590 the dumb money is, is gone or something like that. 103 00:05:40,619 --> 00:05:42,479 Adam Curry: I wouldn't say it was dumb money. It was just 104 00:05:42,509 --> 00:05:45,359 there was free money. I mean, it was free, when it's free money, 105 00:05:45,359 --> 00:05:48,029 then you can take big bets on stuff. But 106 00:05:48,030 --> 00:05:50,850 Dave Jones: specifically the debt like the details of what 107 00:05:51,540 --> 00:05:55,470 you know, what it means when to say that the free money is gone 108 00:05:55,470 --> 00:06:01,020 is basically this is the way this works is when you know when 109 00:06:01,020 --> 00:06:07,050 interest rates go up. Basically, US Treasuries become more 110 00:06:07,050 --> 00:06:12,180 attractive than risky bets, because you have you have US 111 00:06:12,180 --> 00:06:15,990 Treasuries paying in specifically treasuries, paying 112 00:06:15,990 --> 00:06:21,750 5%. Plus, investors redirect all their cat, other capital, or 113 00:06:21,750 --> 00:06:24,660 their all their free cash that is available for investing, they 114 00:06:24,660 --> 00:06:27,990 redirect that into a sure thing. Yeah. I mean, if you can get a 115 00:06:27,990 --> 00:06:34,560 guaranteed 5% or more on a treasury bill. Yeah. Then why in 116 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:37,530 the world, would you would you do? Are you going to put any of 117 00:06:37,530 --> 00:06:40,560 that money into Spotify or some crazy startup? Hell no. 118 00:06:40,590 --> 00:06:43,920 Adam Curry: But also, people need to remember the Spotify was 119 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:47,100 not an initial public offering in the truest sense of the word. 120 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:50,820 They didn't raise capital, they went to they just appeared on 121 00:06:50,820 --> 00:06:56,280 the on the stock market. So you know, it was what is it reverse 122 00:06:56,280 --> 00:06:58,770 listing or direct listing? I think they call it so there was 123 00:06:58,770 --> 00:07:02,460 no underwriter that, you know, that had all this, you know, 124 00:07:02,460 --> 00:07:05,790 that had basically sold shares and got all this extra money, 125 00:07:05,790 --> 00:07:08,670 they had money, which they had raised, that privately in 126 00:07:08,670 --> 00:07:12,720 subsequent rounds, when money was very, very cheap. Now, their 127 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:16,800 business model will never make them a very successful company, 128 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:21,720 because their business model is owned by the publishers and 129 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:27,840 labels. They own. They own most of the stock. So that I saw 130 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:32,670 something like, yeah, Spotify is owned by China. No, no, no, no, 131 00:07:32,670 --> 00:07:36,300 that's not true. No, it's not true. Spotify is owned by music 132 00:07:36,300 --> 00:07:40,500 insiders. And it's, it's just a pass through. It's a pass 133 00:07:40,500 --> 00:07:46,710 through from you, the the audience to them. And Spotify 134 00:07:46,710 --> 00:07:50,760 that Oh, guys, you got to make it work. And and, you know, 135 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:51,540 Spotify 136 00:07:51,570 --> 00:07:54,750 Dave Jones: is the music labels. I mean, yes. Yeah. What did it 137 00:07:54,870 --> 00:07:57,150 it's similar? You know, I started thinking about it this 138 00:07:57,150 --> 00:08:01,980 week. It's similar to Hulu. Hulu was basically the big 139 00:08:01,980 --> 00:08:05,130 broadcasters. They're like, you know, they came together and did 140 00:08:05,130 --> 00:08:09,810 this essentially joint joint investment. With it, I think 141 00:08:09,810 --> 00:08:13,410 it's mostly they've a lot of the pulled out now. And it's mostly 142 00:08:13,410 --> 00:08:17,340 Disney left holding the bag. But initially, Hulu was always 143 00:08:17,340 --> 00:08:20,400 buddy. It was everybody. Yeah, everybody went in together so 144 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:25,140 that there would be this sort of common marketplace for streaming 145 00:08:25,500 --> 00:08:29,460 television. It helped them to have like a common store for 146 00:08:29,460 --> 00:08:32,550 digital storefront, because they didn't have to build everything 147 00:08:32,550 --> 00:08:36,450 themselves, they could just pump their content over there. And 148 00:08:36,450 --> 00:08:39,240 then they were done. And this, that's essentially what Spotify 149 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:46,230 is for the music labels. It's universal, Sony and his the the, 150 00:08:46,260 --> 00:08:49,260 the big three, essentially, they they just have a common 151 00:08:49,260 --> 00:08:52,770 storefront where they, where it's a one stop shop for people 152 00:08:52,770 --> 00:08:54,990 to go and get their strange streaming music. And that 153 00:08:54,990 --> 00:08:56,220 happens to be Spotify. 154 00:08:56,370 --> 00:08:59,670 Adam Curry: So the idea that they had, just to review was 155 00:08:59,670 --> 00:09:03,300 let's expand, here's all this free content. Let's take that. 156 00:09:03,330 --> 00:09:06,990 And you know, let's have some of our own shows. And then they 157 00:09:06,990 --> 00:09:11,010 went off the rails and they they had McKinsey, I think McKinsey 158 00:09:11,340 --> 00:09:14,160 interview a lot of people they wrote a whole strategy, a white 159 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:16,770 paper, which never got a copy of that they promised I would get 160 00:09:16,770 --> 00:09:20,610 it. And I said no, don't do this is not a good idea. This is just 161 00:09:20,610 --> 00:09:28,230 not not a good idea. And but what they did, is they created a 162 00:09:28,230 --> 00:09:33,300 huge hype in around podcasting, which was already on the way up 163 00:09:33,300 --> 00:09:39,780 because of great content from the 2016 Cereal podcast. This is 164 00:09:39,780 --> 00:09:42,180 what got people interested in again at that at the height of 165 00:09:42,180 --> 00:09:45,120 streaming when everybody was binging and showing up at the 166 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:48,540 office on Monday morning, you know that their job was on the 167 00:09:48,540 --> 00:09:52,230 floor. Now all sudden, you had to wait until the next week to 168 00:09:52,230 --> 00:09:56,010 listen to this very exciting true crime drama, which you 169 00:09:56,010 --> 00:10:00,270 know, that's a very exciting content format. So When they 170 00:10:00,270 --> 00:10:04,380 started shelling out the money, the end buying up, you know, 171 00:10:04,380 --> 00:10:09,960 companies that had no profits gimlet, etc. Ringer. They were 172 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,870 in all these companies were in trouble. But it was big money. 173 00:10:12,870 --> 00:10:15,630 It was you know, hundreds of millions of dollars Joe Rogan. 174 00:10:15,900 --> 00:10:19,140 We still don't know exactly how much it was or, but okay, let's 175 00:10:19,140 --> 00:10:23,640 just say it's the purported $2 million $200 million. And now in 176 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:25,920 that in that, that started the whole frenzy, and everybody 177 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:29,310 went, Oh, this is great. Fantastic. We're good to go. You 178 00:10:29,310 --> 00:10:33,540 know, that would that came. You know, the typical, the people 179 00:10:33,540 --> 00:10:36,630 who had been scraping by gimlet now all sudden, they wanted to 180 00:10:36,630 --> 00:10:41,040 have, you know, $150,000 year salaries. The money was flowing, 181 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:44,220 the money was cheap. And now the inverse has happened. You know, 182 00:10:44,220 --> 00:10:45,930 it's like Sorry, now we're cutting everything. Now. 183 00:10:45,930 --> 00:10:50,970 Podcasting sucks. Now, it's no good. It's, you know, AI is all 184 00:10:50,970 --> 00:10:55,800 we're talking about. But I do want to take us back to last 185 00:10:55,830 --> 00:11:02,700 October 2022. This is the head of talk verticals. I think those 186 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:05,580 this was the presentation, I'm going to say that. We probably 187 00:11:05,580 --> 00:11:10,170 got this from pod news. Weekly Review. I'm not sure I know, 188 00:11:10,170 --> 00:11:13,800 James definitely linked to, you know, to the to the investor 189 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:17,100 conference. I think that's what it was. And here's here is how 190 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:21,930 Spotify was thinking just a little over two years or one 191 00:11:21,930 --> 00:11:22,500 year ago. 192 00:11:22,560 --> 00:11:25,050 Unknown: Think about it. Podcasting has been around for 193 00:11:25,050 --> 00:11:28,410 almost two decades, and it's remained largely unchanged. 194 00:11:28,770 --> 00:11:32,820 Mainly because of the limitations of RSS. We've been 195 00:11:32,820 --> 00:11:36,180 able to replace RSS for on platform distribution, which 196 00:11:36,180 --> 00:11:39,510 means that podcasts created on our platform are no longer held 197 00:11:39,510 --> 00:11:43,140 back by this outdated technology. This has opened up a 198 00:11:43,140 --> 00:11:46,260 new world of opportunity to add features and formats to the 199 00:11:46,260 --> 00:11:48,930 podcast listening experience that have never been possible 200 00:11:48,930 --> 00:11:52,590 before. So Spotify is now not only differentiated by our 201 00:11:52,590 --> 00:11:56,220 catalogue of content, but also by delivering a truly superior 202 00:11:56,220 --> 00:11:58,890 product for podcast listeners and creators. 203 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:02,820 Adam Curry: I would wager to say that didn't materialize anything 204 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:04,980 that was superior. 205 00:12:06,300 --> 00:12:08,100 Dave Jones: That was actually my clip. I remember that, oh, 206 00:12:08,100 --> 00:12:09,390 maybe. Well, then 207 00:12:09,390 --> 00:12:11,790 Adam Curry: here's when we pulled this other one another 208 00:12:11,790 --> 00:12:14,340 Unknown: way we've been able to innovate on the format. We've 209 00:12:14,340 --> 00:12:18,600 made podcasts more interactive, finally enabling a deeper, more 210 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:22,680 intimate connection between creators and their fans. One of 211 00:12:22,680 --> 00:12:25,080 our favorite things about podcasting is the unique 212 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:28,050 connection it enables between creators and listeners. It's 213 00:12:28,050 --> 00:12:32,520 intimate show, voices are directly in listeners ears. But 214 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:36,630 until now, podcasting has been a one way street creators publish 215 00:12:36,630 --> 00:12:40,530 shows and their audiences Listen, traditionally, RSS has 216 00:12:40,530 --> 00:12:43,980 been limited to anonymized, aggregated analytics. And even 217 00:12:43,980 --> 00:12:46,590 those are limited to what can be determined from IP addresses. 218 00:12:46,590 --> 00:12:49,440 There you go. Yeah, because of these limitations, fans have 219 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:51,540 never had a good way to reach their favorite creators 220 00:12:51,540 --> 00:12:52,020 directly. 221 00:12:52,050 --> 00:12:54,690 Adam Curry: No, that's no, it's because of these limitations. 222 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:58,140 Wasn't that creators and I have a problem with the term 223 00:12:58,140 --> 00:13:01,020 creators, creators couldn't it's not they couldn't reach their 224 00:13:01,020 --> 00:13:03,660 audiences effectively is that you couldn't track audience 225 00:13:03,660 --> 00:13:07,230 members and advertise. And then you were totally able to do it, 226 00:13:07,230 --> 00:13:09,210 and you still couldn't pull it off. But 227 00:13:09,209 --> 00:13:12,479 Unknown: now we're changing that we're changing. Our first way of 228 00:13:12,479 --> 00:13:16,259 addressing this was with q&a and polls, both text based questions 229 00:13:16,259 --> 00:13:19,079 that can be posed by the show's creators and surface listeners 230 00:13:19,079 --> 00:13:22,589 in the Spotify app. These interactive features make it 231 00:13:22,589 --> 00:13:25,199 easy for listeners to engage with the people behind their 232 00:13:25,199 --> 00:13:27,899 favorite podcasts, and for creators to hear from their 233 00:13:27,899 --> 00:13:32,339 audience directly on Spotify. These features are available now 234 00:13:32,339 --> 00:13:36,149 to all anchor creators around the world. We've heard from many 235 00:13:36,149 --> 00:13:39,389 creators, the q&a and polls have been crucial in helping them 236 00:13:39,389 --> 00:13:42,419 develop engaged audiences that keep coming back for more 237 00:13:42,419 --> 00:13:45,089 crucial Yeah, crucial. And this is just the beginning of our 238 00:13:45,089 --> 00:13:47,789 interactive tools. For podcasts, we're really excited to 239 00:13:47,789 --> 00:13:50,549 introduce lots of new ways for creators and their fans to 240 00:13:50,549 --> 00:13:51,449 connect with each other. 241 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:55,650 Adam Curry: So I am so happy that we just stuck to our guns, 242 00:13:55,650 --> 00:13:59,040 we stuck to RSS. Now this doesn't mean that we solve any, 243 00:13:59,460 --> 00:14:03,930 any money making issues per se. We don't have any solutions for 244 00:14:03,930 --> 00:14:08,190 advertising. In fact, we built out value for value, which does 245 00:14:08,190 --> 00:14:12,900 work for people who dive into it. And I think over time, 246 00:14:12,900 --> 00:14:17,730 you'll see that value for value will have its hits, real hits. I 247 00:14:17,730 --> 00:14:20,790 mean, I consider no agenda to be a hit. I consider the show to be 248 00:14:20,790 --> 00:14:25,470 a hit now we can't live off of it. But our project is running 249 00:14:25,470 --> 00:14:28,890 off of it. That's for sure that's a hit you know, that's 250 00:14:28,890 --> 00:14:34,950 that's good. It's hope betting against RSS is just not a good 251 00:14:34,950 --> 00:14:39,210 idea betting against the the general idea of distributing 252 00:14:39,210 --> 00:14:43,830 your podcast far and wide through RSS is just again, not a 253 00:14:43,830 --> 00:14:48,300 good idea. Now, here's the problem. You know, the 254 00:14:48,300 --> 00:14:53,010 advertising market is finicky. You know, what is the hot thing 255 00:14:53,010 --> 00:14:56,100 right now? So podcasting was the hot thing, you know, they were 256 00:14:56,100 --> 00:15:01,770 40 $50,000 per spot. Go went out um, as I was reading in this, 257 00:15:02,220 --> 00:15:06,420 Adam Davidson, The Rise and Fall of podcasting, I mean that $100 258 00:15:06,420 --> 00:15:12,480 CPMs Okay. And you know now that podcasting is kind of falling 259 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:15,030 out of favor because hey, Spotify can make it work that 260 00:15:15,030 --> 00:15:19,230 firing people it's no good. You know, the media buyers there, 261 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:22,080 they're going to they're spending the same money on Tik 262 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:25,950 Tok, or wherever in anywhere but here, which, of course, is why 263 00:15:25,950 --> 00:15:29,790 we have this, the podcast industrial complex. I'm leading 264 00:15:29,790 --> 00:15:32,790 right to you, Dave, you can see it. The podcast industrial 265 00:15:32,790 --> 00:15:37,920 complex is, is touting video as the only way forward and 266 00:15:38,070 --> 00:15:41,940 audiences have changed and oh, no, we have to stay. You know, 267 00:15:41,940 --> 00:15:47,550 we have to be flexible now. No. And by the way, this week in 268 00:15:47,550 --> 00:15:54,240 tech, complete video, all these shows are video yet, and I am 269 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:59,520 sad, you know, here's Leo had to let three people go who had been 270 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:06,420 there for for like 1515 years. And he says here. Unfortunately, 271 00:16:06,420 --> 00:16:09,210 our medium podcasting has suffered economically since the 272 00:16:09,210 --> 00:16:12,810 beginning of COVID. As the number of podcasts grew 273 00:16:12,810 --> 00:16:16,740 exponentially, the number of advertisers dwindled, and with 274 00:16:16,740 --> 00:16:20,370 it, our revenue. At one time, we had as many as 30 people on 275 00:16:20,370 --> 00:16:23,550 Twitch staff, not including show hosts, producing more than 30 276 00:16:23,550 --> 00:16:27,120 unique shows today, the staff is half that size. And we produce 277 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:31,470 half the number of shows all video, by the way. So get out of 278 00:16:31,470 --> 00:16:34,620 here with your video argument is just bowl and they put it on 279 00:16:34,620 --> 00:16:38,700 YouTube and all it's not working. Because it's out of 280 00:16:38,700 --> 00:16:43,620 favor. You know, we weren't there. I guarantee you in some 281 00:16:43,620 --> 00:16:46,380 time, it could be five years from now. I mean, this is almost 282 00:16:46,380 --> 00:16:50,280 a repeat of when YouTube was purchased, or was it a billion 283 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:53,550 dollars or $2 billion. And everybody always gotta have you 284 00:16:53,550 --> 00:16:57,600 gotta have video. I had a company my my VCs were literally 285 00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:59,970 saying, You gotta have video, it's got to be video. So we did 286 00:16:59,970 --> 00:17:03,780 video? And did it make a difference? No. No? 287 00:17:04,290 --> 00:17:11,850 Dave Jones: So did do you think video? And what did VT was 288 00:17:11,850 --> 00:17:16,710 video? How instrumental was video in the demise of pod show? 289 00:17:17,940 --> 00:17:22,710 Of me view? The heck if you had not gone into video, would it? 290 00:17:22,710 --> 00:17:24,720 Would you have survived longer? No, 291 00:17:24,750 --> 00:17:27,240 Adam Curry: no, because it was an advertising based model. 292 00:17:27,540 --> 00:17:31,620 That's why I left. It's like you can't make this work. You can't 293 00:17:31,650 --> 00:17:37,080 make it work. Because CPMs are a race to the bottom always. It's 294 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:40,020 always a race to the bottom. So you wind up with you know, 295 00:17:40,020 --> 00:17:42,990 cheap, crappy content. And particularly if you're producing 296 00:17:42,990 --> 00:17:45,930 video, it gets very expensive very quickly, or at least 297 00:17:45,930 --> 00:17:50,880 expensive in in human resource cycles. So it just doesn't work. 298 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:56,340 Now what will happen, and history repeats or rhymes, we 299 00:17:56,340 --> 00:17:59,550 will see a another show that will come out of nowhere that 300 00:17:59,550 --> 00:18:02,880 people are going to be crazy about that. It'll be audio and 301 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:05,550 they're going to love it and people will start listening or 302 00:18:05,580 --> 00:18:10,380 it'll start being hyped again. Now, will it be advertising has 303 00:18:10,380 --> 00:18:16,680 a place in podcasting? It sure does. But it's not this inserted 304 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:21,480 ads and all this stuff. It's none of that. No, bridesmaid 305 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:23,700 magazine. That's how I see it. 306 00:18:24,060 --> 00:18:26,550 Dave Jones: But you've got to when it comes to advertising, 307 00:18:26,550 --> 00:18:31,680 you have a sort of baseline of like brand, what you could call 308 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:33,990 like brand awareness advertising, that's just never 309 00:18:33,990 --> 00:18:39,510 gonna go away. I mean, brands have to, like if you're Johnson 310 00:18:39,510 --> 00:18:43,530 and Johnson, you've got to just advertise on a consistent basis 311 00:18:43,530 --> 00:18:48,450 to maintain to maintain public awareness of your brand. Yeah, I 312 00:18:48,450 --> 00:18:50,640 Adam Curry: don't see a Johnson and Johnson ad anywhere in 313 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,340 podcasting. Not a single one. No, 314 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,070 Dave Jones: but there's some there's that out there and that 315 00:18:56,070 --> 00:18:59,970 stuff is just always going to be there. But it to some degree. I 316 00:18:59,970 --> 00:19:03,180 mean, it'll fluctuate a little bit, but there's that back sort 317 00:19:03,180 --> 00:19:07,020 of background radiation level of brand awareness advertising, 318 00:19:07,020 --> 00:19:10,080 where it's just like, Okay, we, we just got to do this always. 319 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:13,380 But then there's the, you know, the the actual campaigns where 320 00:19:13,380 --> 00:19:17,220 they push specific things, and they do and they stick their 321 00:19:17,220 --> 00:19:21,990 neck out advertising wise, those, you know, those are taken 322 00:19:21,990 --> 00:19:25,200 a hit. That's what you know, that's what people are the, 323 00:19:25,740 --> 00:19:28,800 like, spot. And there's also the thing like specifically with 324 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:32,520 Spotify, they went to, like during the pandemic they went up 325 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:36,900 from like, they doubled in size 5000 to like 10,000 employees. 326 00:19:37,590 --> 00:19:43,050 This This was never sustainable. I mean, when, when, when, when 327 00:19:43,050 --> 00:19:46,950 tray, when Treasuries are paying next to nothing Yeah, there you 328 00:19:46,950 --> 00:19:50,820 go. Investors have to put their money somewhere to get a return. 329 00:19:51,090 --> 00:19:54,330 And one might as well put it into podcasting. But But when 330 00:19:54,330 --> 00:19:56,790 that's no longer the case, and the script flips and you can 331 00:19:56,790 --> 00:19:58,950 make guaranteed money somewhere else. You're not going to put 332 00:19:58,950 --> 00:20:01,890 your money into podcasting because it's a joke. So when the 333 00:20:01,890 --> 00:20:04,740 money like when the money dried up, they had no choice but to 334 00:20:04,740 --> 00:20:08,460 reduce headcount. There's this the in the stock price bump, 335 00:20:08,490 --> 00:20:10,920 they got I mean, that's like a, you could call that like a 336 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:15,060 survival bounce basically the stock price, they it reflects 337 00:20:15,060 --> 00:20:19,140 the fact that being profitable means they just won't go 338 00:20:19,140 --> 00:20:23,340 bankrupt. Like that. It's not like they're going to be 339 00:20:23,340 --> 00:20:26,310 gangbusters. It's not like they're going to make tons of 340 00:20:26,310 --> 00:20:30,060 money. It's just Okay, now they're not going to die. 341 00:20:31,500 --> 00:20:33,990 Adam Curry: It was interesting, because while I was gonna say, 342 00:20:34,020 --> 00:20:37,290 you know, what happened is the same thing. Excuse me, the same 343 00:20:37,290 --> 00:20:39,450 thing that happened with blogging is people thought, 344 00:20:39,450 --> 00:20:41,850 well, I got a blog, I have readers, therefore, I shouldn't 345 00:20:41,850 --> 00:20:46,890 be making money. No, it's just not true. I mean, I spent 16 346 00:20:46,890 --> 00:20:50,250 years with the Vortec, building up an audience. And the first 347 00:20:50,940 --> 00:20:57,930 four years were not sustainable. You know, we took risks, to get 348 00:20:57,930 --> 00:21:02,190 it to where it is, and it was much earlier, you know, the, we 349 00:21:02,190 --> 00:21:05,580 didn't have the tools. There's a lot of things we didn't have. We 350 00:21:05,580 --> 00:21:08,850 were also building the awareness of podcasting. And you know, 351 00:21:08,850 --> 00:21:11,400 we've never done video voice that under the radar, and 352 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:13,860 anybody can go listen to our donation segments, and you'll 353 00:21:13,860 --> 00:21:17,310 hear that we are able to sustain two families with kids who went 354 00:21:17,310 --> 00:21:20,850 through school and we're doing okay, yeah, it was not Joe Rogan 355 00:21:20,850 --> 00:21:25,770 money. But that's okay. You can have a book, you can have a 356 00:21:25,770 --> 00:21:28,710 message you can have a church he had, there's so many ways that 357 00:21:28,710 --> 00:21:32,790 podcasting is beneficial to humanity that just doesn't 358 00:21:32,790 --> 00:21:37,620 involve this noise, which is numbers and ad rates. And that's 359 00:21:37,620 --> 00:21:41,730 just over for now. It's over. And all we're seeing now is the 360 00:21:42,180 --> 00:21:46,530 is the last jerky moves, you know, like the the corpse is 361 00:21:46,530 --> 00:21:50,520 still twitching on the ground. And that's, let's go to video 362 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,370 because that's where everybody is. You got to be everywhere. 363 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:55,050 No, no, 364 00:21:55,410 --> 00:21:57,180 Dave Jones: no, no before the defibrillator pads. 365 00:21:58,260 --> 00:22:00,120 Adam Curry: They're not going to help. They're not going to help. 366 00:22:00,330 --> 00:22:03,990 And I, you know, I wish everybody lots of success. But I 367 00:22:03,990 --> 00:22:07,260 think certainly our message is Britain pretty consistent in 368 00:22:07,260 --> 00:22:11,760 this. No, it's just it doesn't work. It doesn't work. 369 00:22:12,360 --> 00:22:18,810 Dave Jones: You know, the listen to podcast weekly review, or 370 00:22:18,810 --> 00:22:22,920 pardon us weekly review. And they were talking about the this 371 00:22:22,950 --> 00:22:27,330 2026 float that that Netflix that mean, excuse me that 372 00:22:27,330 --> 00:22:31,350 Spotify supposedly did that now that's, you know, looming that 373 00:22:31,350 --> 00:22:31,710 I'm sorry. 374 00:22:31,740 --> 00:22:34,860 Adam Curry: Oh, yeah. They have to pay back like $2 billion or 375 00:22:34,860 --> 00:22:35,340 something. 376 00:22:35,730 --> 00:22:37,620 Dave Jones: Yeah. Right. And that's, you know, I'm sure I'm 377 00:22:37,620 --> 00:22:39,960 sure if for sure. That's in there. But one thing that was 378 00:22:39,990 --> 00:22:49,590 interesting is the A saw this phrase, in the same article by 379 00:22:50,910 --> 00:22:57,270 Ben Thompson, where he mentioned that in 2018, Spotify had 380 00:22:57,270 --> 00:23:02,250 renegotiated their royalty rates with the major with the music 381 00:23:02,250 --> 00:23:08,910 labels. Yes. And they rate the deal was, according to him that 382 00:23:08,910 --> 00:23:14,670 the renegotiated lower rate was in exchange for, quote, 383 00:23:14,700 --> 00:23:19,050 guaranteed subscriber growth, unquote, which I 384 00:23:19,050 --> 00:23:20,850 Adam Curry: thought I haven't read. I haven't read the piece 385 00:23:20,850 --> 00:23:24,270 I'll have to read. Okay. I went looking for confirmation 386 00:23:24,270 --> 00:23:27,600 Dave Jones: of this. And I found a few other articles that 387 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:31,410 mentioned the same thing from that period of time it was it 388 00:23:31,410 --> 00:23:35,520 was coverage. One was from NPR, where it covered where it 389 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,940 covered the renegotiation at the time it happened. It mentions 390 00:23:38,940 --> 00:23:41,460 the same thing. And there was another analysis piece that 391 00:23:41,460 --> 00:23:43,740 happened around that same time, they mentioned the same thing 392 00:23:43,740 --> 00:23:48,120 that basically they had made promises to the record labels 393 00:23:48,150 --> 00:23:53,850 that they would have a specific subscriber growth rate in order 394 00:23:53,850 --> 00:23:56,940 to get those lower royalties. And if the royal if their growth 395 00:23:56,940 --> 00:24:00,060 rate ever went down, dropped below that, that the royalties 396 00:24:00,060 --> 00:24:06,030 would go up. Yeah. You know, that puts a different twist on a 397 00:24:06,030 --> 00:24:11,370 lot of the podcast exclusives. They did like Rogen, the Rogen 398 00:24:11,370 --> 00:24:15,990 stuff in that regard. Yeah, it wasn't an advertising play. 399 00:24:15,990 --> 00:24:22,260 Sure. But it also makes you think, Okay, well, if we can't 400 00:24:22,260 --> 00:24:26,730 meet subscriber growth demands, pulling in a large, popular 401 00:24:26,730 --> 00:24:27,870 exclusive podcast. 402 00:24:28,230 --> 00:24:29,940 Adam Curry: That's, that's what saved them probably. 403 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,660 Dave Jones: Yeah, you get to, let's say you pay out 200 404 00:24:33,660 --> 00:24:37,020 million over over 10 years, or something like that, whoever 405 00:24:37,020 --> 00:24:40,800 whatever the contract was, if that maintains your ability to 406 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,560 have lower royalty rates that could pay for itself easily. 407 00:24:43,590 --> 00:24:49,320 Adam Curry: There's also a cultural problem at Spotify. And 408 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:52,350 if you recall, I wish I had the clip. I probably don't have any 409 00:24:52,350 --> 00:24:56,010 more. Let me see. It was the CT of this. There were all these 410 00:24:56,040 --> 00:25:01,950 music artists and we seek to Spotify I wish I had that all 411 00:25:01,950 --> 00:25:04,170 these music artists and they were bitching and moaning and 412 00:25:04,170 --> 00:25:07,110 complaining about, you know, that they weren't getting paid 413 00:25:07,110 --> 00:25:12,330 or whatever. And the CT, I think was the CTO. He says, you know, 414 00:25:12,360 --> 00:25:16,200 you really should be happy that we're putting that we have this 415 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:17,280 platform for you. 416 00:25:18,090 --> 00:25:19,920 Dave Jones: I remember that. Yeah, we I think we played a 417 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:21,810 clip and yeah, I wish I could find it. 418 00:25:23,310 --> 00:25:25,560 Adam Curry: And, and it just showed, you know, because 419 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:30,660 initially, Spotify was a if I if I recall, it was a peer to peer 420 00:25:30,690 --> 00:25:33,810 it was kind of like a legal Napster. Initially, it had a 421 00:25:33,810 --> 00:25:37,080 peer to peer distribution system. There was something in 422 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:41,670 there that changed later. But they've never really, they've 423 00:25:41,670 --> 00:25:44,100 always thought of themselves as hey, we're, we're the big 424 00:25:44,100 --> 00:25:47,160 powerful Spotify, and you should just be happy that we let you 425 00:25:47,190 --> 00:25:51,150 ride along on our coattails. It's just it's just the, the DNA 426 00:25:51,150 --> 00:25:55,050 of the company. I'm not saying it's good or bad. But you know, 427 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,410 so there's no one gets any, this is not going to be any love 428 00:25:58,410 --> 00:26:00,480 going back to them now that they have problems. 429 00:26:00,810 --> 00:26:02,640 Dave Jones: Well, I think they inherited that attitude, 430 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:08,250 probably from the music labels because the music or the music 431 00:26:08,250 --> 00:26:19,080 labels are that is maybe people arts don't appreciate how big 432 00:26:19,140 --> 00:26:23,520 and serious of a business, the music, stuff that music rights 433 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:29,580 holders stuff is if you look I saw the other day you posted 434 00:26:29,580 --> 00:26:33,120 something about Rush. Rush is catalog being sold new happened 435 00:26:33,120 --> 00:26:37,290 back in like 2014 or so. There's a rush sold their music catalog 436 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:46,320 to this company called ole ole is owned, I think majority owned 437 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:51,420 by the Ontario teachers pension fund. Yeah, so yeah. Big 438 00:26:51,420 --> 00:26:55,110 investment. Yeah, the entire entire Ontario teachers pension 439 00:26:55,110 --> 00:27:01,200 fund now owns lots of music royalty, and music catalogs. 440 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,650 This is huge business a hundreds and hundreds of millions of 441 00:27:04,650 --> 00:27:09,420 dollars. That is owned by pension funds, retirement plans. 442 00:27:09,810 --> 00:27:14,490 The like, these are serious people with high value assets 443 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:19,740 that must make a return. They're not playing around. No, no, 444 00:27:19,770 --> 00:27:22,290 Adam Curry: no, exactly. Especially if they control it 445 00:27:22,290 --> 00:27:25,590 know if they can if they have control. Absolutely. But this 446 00:27:25,590 --> 00:27:28,530 has been going on for a long time. And David Bowie famously 447 00:27:28,530 --> 00:27:31,920 sold his rights, you know, way back a Shoe Man was in the late 448 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:37,080 90s for 50 million when 50 million was 50 million. So 449 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:44,580 anyway, long story short, we need to reset what's not we I 450 00:27:44,580 --> 00:27:48,870 think we're actually pretty good. I think value for value is 451 00:27:48,900 --> 00:27:54,030 starting to show. Benefit. I think that the value for value 452 00:27:54,030 --> 00:27:59,220 music is where we have a lot so much room to grow. We can we can 453 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:04,080 absolutely supplant radio, I mean, radios got the numbers on 454 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,500 radio are humongous. But it's also expensive to operate. I 455 00:28:07,500 --> 00:28:11,010 heart I heart, which owns a lot of stations, not a very healthy 456 00:28:11,010 --> 00:28:14,070 company financially. And you know, it's only going to get 457 00:28:14,070 --> 00:28:16,800 worse, Sirius XM, they're going to have to shoot birds in this 458 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,040 space. Again, these things do expire. Now, I don't think 459 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,670 interest rates are coming down anytime soon. I don't either. So 460 00:28:23,670 --> 00:28:27,960 it's going it's going to be tough for a lot of this. And as 461 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:28,110 long 462 00:28:28,110 --> 00:28:32,130 Dave Jones: as that rate dropped yesterday to 3.7 on the wrong, 463 00:28:32,370 --> 00:28:32,670 that'd be 464 00:28:32,670 --> 00:28:34,980 Adam Curry: the opposite. They say exactly the opposite of what 465 00:28:34,980 --> 00:28:40,860 they want. Yeah. So it's so it's so crooked in the world that the 466 00:28:40,860 --> 00:28:44,760 Federal Reserve who prints the US dollar is happy when more 467 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,610 people are out of work. It's amazing. Yeah, 468 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:48,660 Dave Jones: that's what they're cheering 469 00:28:48,690 --> 00:28:50,760 Adam Curry: they're cheering for it. Yes, exactly. 470 00:28:51,690 --> 00:28:54,210 Dave Jones: I brought I brought clips from the media roundtable 471 00:28:54,210 --> 00:28:57,300 speaking of radios, because a couple of radio guys know now 472 00:28:57,300 --> 00:29:00,300 Adam Curry: this, I heard this. So I'll be interested in going 473 00:29:00,300 --> 00:29:04,830 clips up you picked. But this is one of these guys is the 474 00:29:04,830 --> 00:29:08,790 professor who teaches podcast does he teach podcasting? What 475 00:29:08,790 --> 00:29:16,800 is his actual? What is his course that he teaches? Is audio 476 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:17,580 podcast, 477 00:29:17,610 --> 00:29:19,950 Dave Jones: podcasting or something like that? I'm not 478 00:29:19,950 --> 00:29:21,750 sure he's the podcast, professor. I don't know. 479 00:29:21,870 --> 00:29:25,680 Adam Curry: I mean, I've sparred with him on on Twitter a long 480 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,590 time ago. I'm like, What is wrong with you? 481 00:29:32,430 --> 00:29:34,620 Dave Jones: I'm sure he's a great guy. I'm not impressed by 482 00:29:34,620 --> 00:29:38,760 his analysis. I mean, I'll just put my cards on the table. I 483 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,240 mean, which sounds silly because he's a radio veteran. And I'm, 484 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:48,720 you know, I'm just an IT guy. But, I mean, I think I can make 485 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:54,150 the point that some of the analysis is just it has some 486 00:29:54,150 --> 00:29:58,890 fundamental contradictions that make me question the whole 487 00:29:58,890 --> 00:30:05,070 thing. So let's let's just start off by the basic thesis. And I 488 00:30:05,070 --> 00:30:09,480 want to I want to drive a point here, that so they start off by, 489 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,560 he mentioned, well, let me set it up. So this is the media 490 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:18,240 roundtable show. This is Oxford road advertising agency. And 491 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,900 this is Dan Granger, I believe is his name interviewing Steven 492 00:30:21,900 --> 00:30:25,380 Goldstein. And Steven Goldstein is the guy who's a professor at 493 00:30:25,380 --> 00:30:28,830 NYU teaches a class on podcasting. But he's also an 494 00:30:28,830 --> 00:30:31,680 advertising guy. So these just the context here is these are 495 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:39,720 two advertising guys that came into the podcasting world from 496 00:30:40,020 --> 00:30:43,290 radio according to what they have described themselves. So 497 00:30:43,290 --> 00:30:49,470 they his so Goldstein, I think, had a hand a pretty big hand in 498 00:30:50,010 --> 00:30:55,260 the study a few months ago that said that most people listen to 499 00:30:55,260 --> 00:30:57,180 their podcasts on YouTube. He 500 00:30:57,180 --> 00:31:01,530 Adam Curry: is his amplify media, I think is his that's his 501 00:31:01,530 --> 00:31:01,950 thing. 502 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,340 Dave Jones: Yeah, I mean, advertising is what is 503 00:31:05,340 --> 00:31:09,810 advertised? Yes. Advertising. Yeah. So they he is advocating 504 00:31:09,810 --> 00:31:13,710 for moving what he's saying moving beyond the RSS feed, 505 00:31:15,030 --> 00:31:18,210 Unknown: once a podcast, because I think that's where we are at 506 00:31:18,210 --> 00:31:23,820 this moment. This takes us up to today. You know, does it have to 507 00:31:23,820 --> 00:31:28,830 have that RSS feed? Or is it likely to be something else? And 508 00:31:28,830 --> 00:31:31,920 I think about this, and we'll talk about this probably quite a 509 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:37,050 bit. I think about this. Outside of podcast terms, I think about 510 00:31:37,050 --> 00:31:41,160 things like NBC, they used to feed shows to affiliates around 511 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,070 the country. That's not the business they're in anymore. And 512 00:31:44,070 --> 00:31:47,160 weirdly, they used to pay the affiliates. Now the affiliates 513 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:52,110 pay them. But their content is on apps and streams and it's all 514 00:31:52,110 --> 00:31:56,490 over the place. They're going to do whatever it takes, including 515 00:31:56,490 --> 00:32:00,960 YouTube, to get audience. And that's where we are in 516 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:01,860 podcasting. 517 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:06,180 Adam Curry: That's where you are in podcasting, bro. And I just 518 00:32:06,180 --> 00:32:08,760 want to point out, you know, Steven B said, you know, before 519 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,730 the music is so small drop in the bucket, that's not the 520 00:32:11,730 --> 00:32:15,870 point. All the numbers do what he did with this with this guy 521 00:32:15,870 --> 00:32:18,570 is going to be saying, all of the you got to be the biggest 522 00:32:18,570 --> 00:32:23,400 you got to have more, you got to grow your show. No, no, that's 523 00:32:23,430 --> 00:32:26,520 that's over, that is all going to be over. Nothing will be 524 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,940 sustainable anymore. There's too much media. There's too many 525 00:32:29,940 --> 00:32:33,780 channels, too many streamers. There's too much out there. That 526 00:32:33,780 --> 00:32:41,070 CPMs is no artificial inventory shortage that you can create. 527 00:32:41,070 --> 00:32:44,010 Because you you can just create as much as you want. It's a race 528 00:32:44,010 --> 00:32:48,480 to the bottom. So that is over. But the people who are in V for 529 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:52,590 V music right now, they have never seen any money from 530 00:32:52,590 --> 00:32:55,560 Spotify, or any of the streamers now that they're seeing, okay, 531 00:32:55,560 --> 00:33:00,840 100 bucks, 500 bucks. They're ecstatic. That's the point. 532 00:33:00,870 --> 00:33:04,020 That's where we're going. You don't need to have, you don't 533 00:33:04,020 --> 00:33:06,420 need to have the biggest numbers. You don't need to be 534 00:33:06,570 --> 00:33:09,210 the top of the leaderboard or the rancor. It's just not 535 00:33:09,210 --> 00:33:12,600 necessary in this new model. Well, 536 00:33:12,630 --> 00:33:14,850 Dave Jones: I mean, Harvey Harvey has said, right off the 537 00:33:14,850 --> 00:33:18,660 bat, I've never I've never watched NBC on an app. Like, 538 00:33:18,690 --> 00:33:23,820 yeah, that's there's these these examples of a you know, they're, 539 00:33:24,090 --> 00:33:26,430 these are broadcast television, and now they're doing streaming 540 00:33:26,430 --> 00:33:30,990 and now they're doing, you know, an app, those those, that's a 541 00:33:30,990 --> 00:33:33,900 terrible example because those those streaming apps lose money. 542 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,140 They're all bleeding money, left and right. They're not making 543 00:33:37,140 --> 00:33:37,800 anything this 544 00:33:37,860 --> 00:33:40,410 Adam Curry: Steven Goldstein, he's really a radio guy, the way 545 00:33:40,410 --> 00:33:45,510 I see it. He's a professor and a creator of the business of 546 00:33:45,510 --> 00:33:49,080 podcasting course. But yeah, that's that's the Steinhardt 547 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,930 School of Culture Education, Human Development, okay. 548 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,050 Dave Jones: He goes on to clip to talking to talking about 549 00:33:55,050 --> 00:33:56,730 chasing audience which is good, can we 550 00:33:56,730 --> 00:34:00,720 Unknown: be more pliable and so I would like to think that we 551 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:06,300 can move past the RSS feed and be more nimble and focus on 552 00:34:06,330 --> 00:34:08,130 garnering audience wherever it comes from. 553 00:34:09,299 --> 00:34:11,669 Adam Curry: Does this guy teach how to make good podcasts or 554 00:34:11,669 --> 00:34:16,109 just how to get ghost collect to collect audience members like 555 00:34:16,109 --> 00:34:19,499 their like their, you know, tarot cards or something? 556 00:34:20,130 --> 00:34:23,010 Dave Jones: was about that it's about advertising in this, you 557 00:34:23,010 --> 00:34:29,400 know, I've been trying to make this point from for a while now 558 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:34,080 is that there is a what you would, how would you describe 559 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:41,850 this there is a there, there's a separation in these are 560 00:34:41,850 --> 00:34:46,020 advertising people they've already made the transition from 561 00:34:46,020 --> 00:34:53,040 broadcast radio, to podcasting. There's no loyalty in these in 562 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:57,210 these people to a particular medium. They are advertising. 563 00:34:57,570 --> 00:35:01,470 They will that when you're in advertising You fought you go to 564 00:35:01,470 --> 00:35:06,000 whichever medium is necessary to sell advertising. Yes, that's, 565 00:35:06,030 --> 00:35:12,870 that's different than the actual pod podcast industry that is 566 00:35:12,870 --> 00:35:16,290 fundamental to the architecture of podcasting. And that's why, 567 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,050 you know, we've we've said many times there is no quote unquote, 568 00:35:19,050 --> 00:35:22,830 podcast industry. Because what the pot when people refer to the 569 00:35:22,830 --> 00:35:26,550 podcast industry, they talk about podcasting as if it's some 570 00:35:26,550 --> 00:35:31,620 hole, but it's not it's actually very fragmented. You have, what 571 00:35:31,620 --> 00:35:38,550 you have underneath podcasting is, Ace is a set of profitable 572 00:35:38,550 --> 00:35:44,550 hosting companies, Buzzsprout, arsons, DICOM, blueberry. And 573 00:35:44,580 --> 00:35:51,180 you have you have them as the substrate upon which the content 574 00:35:51,180 --> 00:35:55,800 is distributed through RSS. And then overlaid on top of that you 575 00:35:55,800 --> 00:36:02,460 have a bunch of ad digital advertising people in those, the 576 00:36:02,460 --> 00:36:06,270 point that I've been trying to make is that those two things 577 00:36:06,270 --> 00:36:10,830 are at Fun, fundamentally, kind of at odds with each other. They 578 00:36:10,830 --> 00:36:14,310 see they you see that RSS isn't going to give you what you want, 579 00:36:14,580 --> 00:36:17,730 as an advertising person. Right? You're just going to bail out 580 00:36:17,730 --> 00:36:22,590 and go to YouTube. Yeah, I mean, like, if you click three, he 581 00:36:22,590 --> 00:36:25,740 talks about the, the flexibility, we need more 582 00:36:25,740 --> 00:36:28,500 flexibility than RSS. And that's what he's always talking about. 583 00:36:28,740 --> 00:36:32,790 Unknown: But I think we as people in the podcast space, 584 00:36:33,300 --> 00:36:38,040 need to be what do I want to show we need to be more 585 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:38,580 flexible? 586 00:36:38,670 --> 00:36:41,670 Adam Curry: I love podcast space. Even the podcast makes 587 00:36:41,670 --> 00:36:43,230 bro. Yeah, 588 00:36:43,230 --> 00:36:45,690 Dave Jones: so he says, in podcasting, we need more, we 589 00:36:45,690 --> 00:36:49,560 need to be more flexible than RSS. Okay, keep that word in 590 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:53,670 mind. This was talking about the, with the some of the 591 00:36:53,670 --> 00:36:58,260 fundamental contradictions of the things that are being said. 592 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:02,490 So with that in mind, he talks about in in, in clip four about 593 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:06,810 what is RSS well, and as you think about the reason that it's 594 00:37:06,810 --> 00:37:10,440 even a discussion, can you just break down for some of the 595 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:14,790 audience why an RSS feed is a material factor and how we even 596 00:37:14,790 --> 00:37:17,640 decide where to draw our lines? Sure, 597 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:21,900 Unknown: well, RSS stands for Really Simple Syndication. And 598 00:37:21,900 --> 00:37:24,180 that's primarily what it is, is very flexible. 599 00:37:25,620 --> 00:37:27,030 Adam Curry: But we got to be more flexible. 600 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:29,580 Dave Jones: Yes, we got to be more flexible, but RSS is flex. 601 00:37:30,210 --> 00:37:33,930 So this, this becomes, you know, there's a certain amount of word 602 00:37:33,930 --> 00:37:39,420 salad that happens here. And it's this this fundamental 603 00:37:39,420 --> 00:37:45,570 difference here between the, the, the podcast between the 604 00:37:45,570 --> 00:37:49,710 average digital advertising people, and the actual people 605 00:37:49,710 --> 00:37:57,480 who are loyal to ad dollars and brand brands, and the podcast, 606 00:37:57,570 --> 00:38:01,500 infrastructure and substrate, people who are loyal to RSS and 607 00:38:01,500 --> 00:38:02,520 podcasting, 608 00:38:02,580 --> 00:38:04,560 Adam Curry: we were like substrate scale, that's good. 609 00:38:04,650 --> 00:38:07,050 That's, that's a sexy word substrate substrate 610 00:38:07,050 --> 00:38:09,270 Dave Jones: seems like an old movie from like, the fifth 611 00:38:10,020 --> 00:38:11,490 Adam Curry: pod subs. 612 00:38:12,750 --> 00:38:17,700 Dave Jones: They and this, this these, one had the, the 613 00:38:17,700 --> 00:38:21,270 substrate infrastructure people have they have a loyalty to what 614 00:38:21,300 --> 00:38:27,570 podcasting is at its foundation. That all sort of comes into play 615 00:38:27,570 --> 00:38:28,980 in clip five here, 616 00:38:29,070 --> 00:38:32,610 Unknown: it is not dynamic. It doesn't come with a lot of data. 617 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:36,690 A lot of advertisers is you know, far better than I used to 618 00:38:36,720 --> 00:38:40,470 dealing with rich data environments. And podcasting has 619 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:45,420 some of that, but it doesn't natively have all of that. But 620 00:38:45,420 --> 00:38:50,070 that is what this industry has been built on. And yet, you 621 00:38:50,070 --> 00:38:54,030 know, I don't I don't know why it can't or shouldn't evolve. 622 00:38:57,180 --> 00:39:00,330 Adam Curry: So how come Spotify couldn't do it? Spotify had rich 623 00:39:00,330 --> 00:39:04,080 data. They knew they knew exactly what people were 624 00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:07,050 listening to. And how long why couldn't Spotify make it? Why 625 00:39:07,050 --> 00:39:10,170 couldn't they pull it off? Because this clearly, it's not 626 00:39:10,170 --> 00:39:13,470 just the RSS feed, it's got to be a whole collection of things. 627 00:39:14,340 --> 00:39:17,820 Dave Jones: Yeah. And that and that's the that's a great point. 628 00:39:17,820 --> 00:39:21,900 Because you have what what they're saying is one thing and 629 00:39:21,900 --> 00:39:24,990 what's reality is something different because it's like, 630 00:39:24,990 --> 00:39:29,760 well, advertisers are used to rich data. So do you mean rich 631 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:33,720 data in the sense of Nielsen ratings, because that's not very 632 00:39:33,720 --> 00:39:36,930 Adam Curry: rich. Now they're talking about total total 633 00:39:36,930 --> 00:39:41,190 spying, connecting you with your friends that you're on the same 634 00:39:41,190 --> 00:39:45,360 network Bluetooth proximity apps that are tracking your your 635 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:48,480 finger moves, this is the kind of data you know, data brokers, 636 00:39:48,690 --> 00:39:51,420 this is the kind of stuff they're used to. In 637 00:39:51,420 --> 00:39:53,820 Dave Jones: the only people that make big money in that game are 638 00:39:53,820 --> 00:39:58,470 Google. Nobody else may and Facebook fails but he else makes 639 00:39:58,470 --> 00:40:03,420 humongous money in the ad word in that arena, the the 640 00:40:03,450 --> 00:40:07,650 television arena where data is not rich at all that people are 641 00:40:07,650 --> 00:40:12,000 making are making money there. That's that's real. That's real 642 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,210 money being spent. And there's no there's no data. I don't just 643 00:40:15,210 --> 00:40:17,730 watch that on the air and on the air. And I have to report it to 644 00:40:17,730 --> 00:40:18,810 you in a coupon book. 645 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:22,740 Adam Curry: You know what's interesting, at any moment, any 646 00:40:23,220 --> 00:40:30,480 podcast, app developer, Marco fountain, anybody could create 647 00:40:30,930 --> 00:40:35,670 could put all kinds of tracking stuff in their app, which would, 648 00:40:35,700 --> 00:40:41,850 which would give that app a huge advantage? Over you know, over 649 00:40:41,850 --> 00:40:46,290 everybody else, and you can put the SDKs into your app. It's 650 00:40:46,290 --> 00:40:50,430 amazing. You can do a replay Exactly. See what what somebody 651 00:40:50,430 --> 00:40:53,010 was what they were tapping on their screen. They'll know if 652 00:40:53,010 --> 00:40:54,870 they're hold, if they're listening in bed, if they're 653 00:40:54,870 --> 00:40:57,720 walking, if they're driving in their car, all this stuff is 654 00:40:57,720 --> 00:41:01,200 very normal for apps. Nobody does that, to my knowledge, or 655 00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:06,000 certainly is not selling that rich data. Why not? What is it 656 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:10,260 about the substrate people that we just don't do that? See, I'm 657 00:41:10,260 --> 00:41:14,190 serious. This is very interesting. Is Are there no 658 00:41:14,190 --> 00:41:16,320 shysters out there? Who would want to do this? 659 00:41:16,980 --> 00:41:19,800 Dave Jones: I think it's because if I'm gonna stick my neck out, 660 00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:24,330 and guess I think it's because we sort of inherently know in 661 00:41:24,330 --> 00:41:29,250 the back of our mind that if we did that, it would be a one shot 662 00:41:29,250 --> 00:41:37,110 deal. And then your audience hates you. Yeah. Take the Money 663 00:41:37,110 --> 00:41:40,890 and Run option. You know what I mean? Yeah. Because you because 664 00:41:40,890 --> 00:41:43,500 as soon as you do that, to your to your customer base, they're 665 00:41:43,500 --> 00:41:47,910 out. They're not you. It's you've changed the narrative on 666 00:41:47,910 --> 00:41:50,010 them. And they're not they're not going to I mean, they're not 667 00:41:50,010 --> 00:41:50,520 going to get it. 668 00:41:50,580 --> 00:41:53,970 Adam Curry: I see almost every week someone yelling at me, what 669 00:41:53,970 --> 00:41:58,410 is this podcasting? 2.0 these apps give me ads. I know, bro, 670 00:41:58,410 --> 00:42:01,290 that's the podcast, you're listening to? That. That's a guy 671 00:42:01,290 --> 00:42:06,060 who's giving you the ads? It's I mean, advertising is not good. 672 00:42:06,750 --> 00:42:07,380 In 673 00:42:07,380 --> 00:42:11,010 Dave Jones: that manner. Yeah, that's the you mean, you want to 674 00:42:11,010 --> 00:42:15,360 hear the pic money shot? Clip six, when is it a podcast? And 675 00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:20,430 when is it not? And where do you think that should go? And 676 00:42:20,430 --> 00:42:24,840 Unknown: I don't care. I gotta I don't care. You know, my 677 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:30,270 background is content and audience and sales dollars Chase 678 00:42:30,330 --> 00:42:34,290 ears. So let's go find yours. wherever they are. Figure the 679 00:42:34,290 --> 00:42:35,730 mechanics out. Okay, 680 00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:38,610 Adam Curry: well, that's totally fair. Totally fair, totally 681 00:42:38,610 --> 00:42:40,440 fair. Go do the criticism, 682 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:44,460 Dave Jones: but don't but but the only criticism would be the 683 00:42:44,460 --> 00:42:49,680 enemy, even if it even is a criticism is that's not a 684 00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:53,310 podcast, that is not somebody who is loyal to podcasting, and 685 00:42:53,310 --> 00:42:56,880 trying to make the podcast industry know, into something 686 00:42:56,910 --> 00:42:59,550 into something bigger and better. That is somebody who's 687 00:42:59,580 --> 00:43:03,600 in the advertising industry, and trying to make the advertising 688 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:07,860 industry bigger and better. And those are two different things. 689 00:43:07,860 --> 00:43:12,570 Because you, you do have people whose jobs and livelihoods 690 00:43:12,570 --> 00:43:17,070 depend on podcasting, not advertising, podcasting. And 691 00:43:17,070 --> 00:43:21,060 when you conflate the two terms, it it can do real damage, 692 00:43:21,060 --> 00:43:24,060 because there it is a it confuses the market. 693 00:43:24,090 --> 00:43:27,570 Adam Curry: Yeah. Well, I mean, there's there's so much wrong 694 00:43:27,570 --> 00:43:30,780 with the market now. I mean, imagine your immediate buyer and 695 00:43:30,780 --> 00:43:33,510 this, you know, and people saying, hey, everything's down. 696 00:43:33,510 --> 00:43:36,180 Why is it down? Well, it's because of the app is just 697 00:43:36,180 --> 00:43:39,060 downloading was not downloading him. No, that's not it. It's 698 00:43:39,060 --> 00:43:42,690 just down. What is it up down? It's like, there's no clear 699 00:43:42,690 --> 00:43:47,250 answers. Everybody's dancing around it. It's just not. Yes, 700 00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:52,260 you correct. You don't have rich, great data that you have 701 00:43:52,290 --> 00:43:56,760 in other avenues. You just don't. So it's all iOS 17 702 00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:59,670 Dave Jones: fault. Let's just play it. Clearly. Yeah, I 703 00:43:59,670 --> 00:44:01,620 remember Pearl Harbor. Yeah. It was in 704 00:44:01,620 --> 00:44:03,630 Adam Curry: iOS 70. Yeah. 705 00:44:05,310 --> 00:44:10,020 Dave Jones: That I think I mean, like the the download slowdown. 706 00:44:10,710 --> 00:44:15,630 That's an interesting phenomenon to the OP is interesting to me, 707 00:44:15,630 --> 00:44:19,380 because John Spurlock said he's not seeing that same slowdown on 708 00:44:19,380 --> 00:44:24,510 mp3 stats, which means which tells me that the people I would 709 00:44:24,510 --> 00:44:31,950 say op three is biased towards podcasters who are very hands on 710 00:44:31,950 --> 00:44:36,180 with their shows. You know, I mean, they're, they're people. 711 00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:40,050 They're probably people who are very careful and considerate 712 00:44:40,050 --> 00:44:43,500 about the way they do their show stats, they're not just going 713 00:44:43,500 --> 00:44:45,930 out. And if you're if you're choosing Opie three, you've 714 00:44:45,930 --> 00:44:48,720 thought about it. Yes. And you've probably thought about 715 00:44:48,720 --> 00:44:51,750 lots of stuff that relates to your podcast, you're probably a 716 00:44:51,750 --> 00:44:57,000 very careful person in that regard. So this tells me that 717 00:44:58,230 --> 00:45:02,790 that this general slowed down in downloads across the board is 718 00:45:02,790 --> 00:45:06,840 happening outside of that sector of people. Because it doesn't 719 00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:09,900 seem to be happening for shows that are on mp3. Alright. 720 00:45:09,990 --> 00:45:14,100 Interesting that that means that there's there may be just a 721 00:45:14,100 --> 00:45:21,600 general falling off in either listenership to that to the 722 00:45:21,660 --> 00:45:25,500 lower tier of shows or maybe just fatigue on the part of 723 00:45:25,500 --> 00:45:30,900 podcasters that are starting to, to bail out and put shows out at 724 00:45:30,900 --> 00:45:33,390 it at a smaller pace. I don't know what 725 00:45:33,420 --> 00:45:36,300 Adam Curry: now, I heard something interesting that, you 726 00:45:36,300 --> 00:45:40,800 know, how hosting companies have to renew their cert, their IAB 727 00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:44,190 certification before the end of the year, or they know they 728 00:45:44,190 --> 00:45:51,120 won't be, quote unquote, certified? What? Is it possible 729 00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:53,580 that a lot of these companies just like, well, there's not 730 00:45:53,580 --> 00:45:56,940 really a lot of money in advertising anyway, we can give 731 00:45:56,940 --> 00:46:01,920 you you know, the numbers that are compliant, but we're not 732 00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:05,250 gonna what does it cost? What does it what does it cost these 733 00:46:05,250 --> 00:46:08,970 days to? We get certified, I thought 734 00:46:09,090 --> 00:46:11,010 Dave Jones: guards down with the host is like, it was like, 735 00:46:11,070 --> 00:46:13,740 initially, it was like, 50 grand, yeah, but it's gone down 736 00:46:13,740 --> 00:46:16,590 since then. Right. And then they give everybody a coupon 737 00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:18,840 Adam Curry: for a drink. 738 00:46:20,910 --> 00:46:24,030 Dave Jones: You get everybody a mate, you know, like, like, a 739 00:46:24,030 --> 00:46:27,420 gift card to like, drop the price down to like, 12 or 740 00:46:27,420 --> 00:46:29,430 something like that. It's still a lot of money 15 741 00:46:30,510 --> 00:46:33,960 Adam Curry: A lot of money and made me look hosting companies, 742 00:46:33,990 --> 00:46:38,100 their business is very simple. provide good hosting and an 743 00:46:38,100 --> 00:46:42,030 interface and a customer support. Then if it's if it's 744 00:46:42,030 --> 00:46:46,380 going to cost them too much money for not, you know. I don't 745 00:46:46,380 --> 00:46:49,890 know as Nathan Jesus 12 and a half 1000 for a new member. Oh, 746 00:46:49,890 --> 00:46:55,530 they really took it down. 6250 for renewable non member. Oh, if 747 00:46:55,530 --> 00:46:59,670 you're not a member at 17, five and 887 50. So that's a lot of 748 00:46:59,670 --> 00:47:02,790 money. It's realize a lot of money, real money to no money. 749 00:47:02,820 --> 00:47:06,630 Dave Jones: What I don't the hosting companies may be looking 750 00:47:06,630 --> 00:47:07,770 around and seeing that. 751 00:47:08,340 --> 00:47:11,310 Adam Curry: What's the point? That's my point. Exactly. 752 00:47:12,330 --> 00:47:14,490 Dave Jones: Yeah. What's the if So here, you can you can 753 00:47:14,490 --> 00:47:17,640 juxtapose this with the apple, excuse me, not the apple with 754 00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:20,970 the with the podcast slowdown. For some reason that nobody 755 00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:24,720 fully understands yet. All the sudden droid downloads across 756 00:47:24,720 --> 00:47:27,300 the board just dropped 16 17% Except 757 00:47:27,300 --> 00:47:31,620 Adam Curry: for Pocket Casts. That went up. Yeah. I was that 758 00:47:31,620 --> 00:47:31,890 worried? 759 00:47:33,630 --> 00:47:37,470 Dave Jones: So if you have that, if, if if global downloads can 760 00:47:37,470 --> 00:47:41,550 drop by 17%. And nobody knows why, what what's the point of 761 00:47:41,550 --> 00:47:44,280 even having some sort of a beast? Well, that's 762 00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:47,280 Adam Curry: an excellent point. That's how poor the data really 763 00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:48,510 is. We don't even know why. 764 00:47:49,590 --> 00:47:53,940 Dave Jones: Yeah, what I would, you know, as a, as an industry, 765 00:47:53,970 --> 00:47:58,230 everybody could say, well, we're just we're doing it based on the 766 00:47:58,230 --> 00:48:02,160 way that the two point of the last spec that we saw, we're 767 00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:05,130 basing everything on that. And that's good enough. Good. 768 00:48:05,220 --> 00:48:07,530 Adam Curry: Now this stuff has never worked. I mean, they 769 00:48:07,530 --> 00:48:10,380 brought in Terry Semel into YouTube. It's always when you 770 00:48:10,380 --> 00:48:12,840 bring the Hollywood people in oh, we're going to now is going 771 00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:17,400 to look, AOL. AOL bought Time Warner. Come on. It's been going 772 00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:20,040 on forever. Oh, yeah. Wait decision, once we put the 773 00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:23,700 technology with the content is going to be great. No, it just 774 00:48:23,730 --> 00:48:27,810 it. And this is kind of good, because everybody can now blame 775 00:48:27,810 --> 00:48:32,010 it on Kim Kardashian and the Obamas. And Bruce Springsteen 776 00:48:32,010 --> 00:48:34,440 and the other, they can pretty much blame it on everybody 777 00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:39,570 except Joe Rogan. They can blame all this, the Harry AND MEGAN 778 00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:41,790 Oh, it's all their fault, because, you know, Spotify 779 00:48:41,790 --> 00:48:45,360 burned money on them. That that's, that's, I guess, the 780 00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:47,490 upside of what they can do anyway. 781 00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:50,550 Dave Jones: Plus the escape. Escape. Yeah, yeah. I thought. 782 00:48:51,420 --> 00:48:57,720 So I have a cron job that runs every day in it. It sets feed, 783 00:48:58,980 --> 00:49:04,620 feed priority and popularity. So this cron job runs on the 784 00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:11,670 podcast index front end servers. So the the front end API 785 00:49:11,670 --> 00:49:22,200 servers, they log every call for 90 days. And every every every 786 00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:28,530 morning it the cron job runs and looks at yesterday's log and 787 00:49:30,330 --> 00:49:37,680 tallies up for each feed that was requested for episodes. Like 788 00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:43,260 so if a if an app requested an episode list using the episodes 789 00:49:43,260 --> 00:49:48,600 by feed ID and point and that call came from a recognized 790 00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:51,930 developer token that's in a list that I've curated that I'm not 791 00:49:51,930 --> 00:49:55,650 going to say who's in but it's you know, it's pod verse, you 792 00:49:55,650 --> 00:50:00,000 know, fountain it's it's the standard it's it's developed 793 00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:06,840 First who are writing apps that we know are, are legitimate. So 794 00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:10,200 if it meets those criteria, if if one of those apps requested 795 00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:17,190 episode list for a podcast feed, it tallies those up and then 796 00:50:17,190 --> 00:50:22,620 says, okay, the feed popularity needs to be bumped up for the 797 00:50:22,620 --> 00:50:26,040 feed. And the feed and or the feed priority if it's not a pod 798 00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:29,730 being enabled host needs to go up. So in order, basically, its 799 00:50:29,730 --> 00:50:33,210 base is tracking all the time to see what's being requested. 800 00:50:33,810 --> 00:50:37,200 What's being requested, so that then it can begin to inform the 801 00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:40,440 aggregators, the story can reform, dry search about 802 00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:43,200 popularity ranking, and it can form the aggregate gators about 803 00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:48,540 whether they need to pull that feed more often. So that's a 804 00:50:48,540 --> 00:50:53,070 standard thing we've been doing. I've never I've never really 805 00:50:53,070 --> 00:50:59,790 looked at that script. So I went back and looked at it yesterday, 806 00:51:00,030 --> 00:51:03,270 just unlike, you know, wonder, wonder how many feeds this? 807 00:51:04,350 --> 00:51:06,840 Adam Curry: What is this thing doing here? This is Dave's AI. 808 00:51:07,230 --> 00:51:09,510 You let your AI run for a year? Uh huh. 809 00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:12,600 Dave Jones: And it just out of curiosity, I'm like, Okay, a 810 00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:18,450 little through some stats into it. In, in a day in a 24 hour 811 00:51:18,450 --> 00:51:27,000 period, there were 35,169 individual podcast feeds that 812 00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:27,900 were requested. 813 00:51:30,210 --> 00:51:33,030 Adam Curry: That individual wants to be low. Yeah, 814 00:51:33,060 --> 00:51:34,230 individual ones. 815 00:51:34,740 --> 00:51:40,200 Dave Jones: Yes. Individual distinct, unique podcast IDs. I 816 00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:44,910 think that's pretty interesting. So if we have 4.2 9 million 817 00:51:45,420 --> 00:51:49,860 shows in the index, yeah. And on a in under 20, in a typical 24 818 00:51:49,860 --> 00:51:55,230 hour period, less than 40,000 of those are actually being in sort 819 00:51:55,230 --> 00:51:58,620 of interrogated for their episode list and their metadata. 820 00:51:59,700 --> 00:52:01,440 Adam Curry: I would look at jeopardy, I would look at it 821 00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:07,200 differently, I would say, look at your 60 and 90 day, Episode 822 00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:11,250 updates, which is around 400,000. So your almost 40,000 823 00:52:11,250 --> 00:52:15,840 will be 10%. That's how I would look at it because this 4.2 824 00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:19,890 million. Yeah, we know the truth. We know, we know the 825 00:52:19,890 --> 00:52:24,120 truth. Podcasting is much smaller than that. It really is. 826 00:52:24,450 --> 00:52:24,840 So 827 00:52:24,870 --> 00:52:27,270 Dave Jones: yeah, that's a good look. So that out of the 828 00:52:27,630 --> 00:52:36,420 338,000, over, over 30 days, roughly 10. Only about 10% of 829 00:52:36,420 --> 00:52:39,690 the of those shows that update in 30 day period. Anyone 830 00:52:39,690 --> 00:52:40,080 listening 831 00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:42,720 Adam Curry: to this where people are listening to or require 832 00:52:42,750 --> 00:52:45,810 let's be fair, or requesting an episode list? 833 00:52:46,980 --> 00:52:50,550 Dave Jones: And I think the our our numbers conclusive about it 834 00:52:50,580 --> 00:52:56,430 are representing No, but I will say that I mean, shows like, I 835 00:52:56,430 --> 00:53:01,980 mean, podcasts, apps, like pod pod verse and fountain. In 836 00:53:02,010 --> 00:53:05,010 specifically those two have very long, I mean, they have a lot of 837 00:53:05,100 --> 00:53:11,820 client of users. Yeah, lots of users. And those. While this may 838 00:53:11,820 --> 00:53:18,270 not be wholly representative, it's a pretty good number. I 839 00:53:18,270 --> 00:53:22,020 mean, I feel good about this number that if you just step 840 00:53:22,020 --> 00:53:29,100 back and say okay, how many shows do you think, are actually 841 00:53:29,100 --> 00:53:33,780 something that people listen to? across across the board or 842 00:53:33,780 --> 00:53:43,620 globally? How many shows that if I told, you know, we know, we 843 00:53:43,620 --> 00:53:44,790 know how many update, 844 00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:49,560 Adam Curry: you'd have to give me uniques per week, per month, 845 00:53:50,430 --> 00:53:54,570 then we need to know, we need to know frequency of update of each 846 00:53:54,570 --> 00:54:01,410 of these individual shows. But yeah. Yeah, I don't know. We'll 847 00:54:01,410 --> 00:54:05,220 Dave Jones: take take the 90 day stat on the index 462,000. So 848 00:54:05,220 --> 00:54:07,320 that's how many shows that have published an episode in the last 849 00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:12,990 90 days. If, if even if you know that number, am I okay? Well, 850 00:54:13,170 --> 00:54:15,390 those are how many those are how many feeds that are publishing 851 00:54:15,390 --> 00:54:19,230 episode episodes? Well, then, and we know there's some 852 00:54:19,230 --> 00:54:21,120 duplicates in there and that kind of thing. So we know, 853 00:54:21,510 --> 00:54:27,750 there's a margin of error. But if if you then say, if I want me 854 00:54:27,750 --> 00:54:31,170 to come at it this way, if I if I said, if I told you if we were 855 00:54:31,170 --> 00:54:35,310 talking and I said, Hey, you know what? I bet you the number 856 00:54:35,310 --> 00:54:40,410 of shows that people actually listened to on a daily basis is 857 00:54:40,410 --> 00:54:43,560 less than 50,000. Would that surprise you? 858 00:54:46,650 --> 00:54:49,500 Adam Curry: On that's only across our apps. 859 00:54:51,150 --> 00:54:53,280 Dave Jones: I'm thinking across the board. 860 00:54:53,910 --> 00:54:56,820 Adam Curry: Well, why because this is only this is not. This 861 00:54:56,820 --> 00:54:58,740 is only our apps. I mean, you think yeah, 862 00:54:58,740 --> 00:55:04,950 Dave Jones: no but our apps Ruth showed 35,000 If I say 50,000 or 863 00:55:04,950 --> 00:55:11,700 less, I just have this gut feeling that the number of shows 864 00:55:11,700 --> 00:55:15,180 that people actively tune into and listen to on a daily basis 865 00:55:15,180 --> 00:55:18,930 across the globe is in the five digit range. 866 00:55:19,170 --> 00:55:22,950 Adam Curry: Could be the could be, and still a lot. Oh, 867 00:55:22,950 --> 00:55:25,140 Dave Jones: it's a it's a lot. There's not a criticism saying 868 00:55:25,140 --> 00:55:28,110 that these could be it's a sort of a real is a real reality 869 00:55:28,110 --> 00:55:28,950 check in a way? 870 00:55:30,180 --> 00:55:33,210 Adam Curry: Well, I don't know if you can, if you can slice and 871 00:55:33,210 --> 00:55:36,630 dice it that way. Because, you know, all of our apps have, you 872 00:55:36,630 --> 00:55:40,020 know, under combined probably have under 1% market share of 873 00:55:40,050 --> 00:55:42,270 what people are using to listen to podcasts. 874 00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:46,200 Dave Jones: So, but it would, but ours would be representative 875 00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:49,200 of a whole, you know, because if you take that you take the 876 00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:53,880 audience that is let's say if if pod verse has, if pod verse says 877 00:55:54,330 --> 00:56:02,070 10,000 10,000 users and Apple podcasts has 10 million? Well, 878 00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:09,120 the the range, the list of shows that they that doesn't affect 879 00:56:09,150 --> 00:56:12,540 the number of users doesn't necessarily mean that the range 880 00:56:12,540 --> 00:56:16,410 of shows are going to be different. And so what you know, 881 00:56:16,410 --> 00:56:18,210 like what I'm saying, you're just gonna have more downloads, 882 00:56:18,210 --> 00:56:20,220 but that doesn't mean you're listening to more shows. 883 00:56:20,250 --> 00:56:23,880 Adam Curry: Okay. Yeah. Well, also, this is, you know, this 884 00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:26,730 data that you're talking about is not download data. This is 885 00:56:26,730 --> 00:56:30,960 like someone actively is looking for something as a real human 886 00:56:30,960 --> 00:56:34,110 probably doing something. Yes. Possibly, 887 00:56:34,110 --> 00:56:36,180 Dave Jones: I mean, that you could say searches would be more 888 00:56:36,180 --> 00:56:38,550 of an indicator that this is probably this is more like 889 00:56:38,550 --> 00:56:43,710 things that are actually there would be initial subscriptions, 890 00:56:43,740 --> 00:56:50,250 or catch ups, aggregation help, you know, things like that. I 891 00:56:50,250 --> 00:56:52,530 don't know, it's something I want to look at over time, and 892 00:56:52,530 --> 00:56:54,960 just out of curiosity, not because there's any, you know, 893 00:56:55,410 --> 00:57:00,690 immense value to it. But it's just, it would not be shocking, 894 00:57:00,690 --> 00:57:04,860 if it's, if it's a five digit number of how many shows people 895 00:57:06,030 --> 00:57:09,300 out of out of all these shows that people actually listen to 896 00:57:09,300 --> 00:57:10,380 on a daily basis. 897 00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:14,730 Adam Curry: And it wouldn't surprise me. Yeah, 50,000, it 898 00:57:14,730 --> 00:57:18,480 wouldn't surprise me on a global basis, I guess. Yeah. Because 899 00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:21,660 Dave Jones: that's actually a lot of shows. I mean, a 50,000 900 00:57:21,660 --> 00:57:25,920 shows a lot of podcast. That's a lot of I mean, that's, that's, 901 00:57:26,070 --> 00:57:31,080 you know, a factor of, of 10 more television shows and stuff 902 00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:36,120 than there are likely Yeah. So you're already way you're that's 903 00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:42,690 so much content that you're way out on a limb already. So I 904 00:57:42,690 --> 00:57:45,000 don't know. It's just a point of curiosity to me. 905 00:57:45,420 --> 00:57:51,540 Adam Curry: I have a couple things on my list. One is pod 906 00:57:51,540 --> 00:57:56,700 roll. So you've been doing work on that? Yeah. Do you want to 907 00:57:56,700 --> 00:57:58,110 share with the class? 908 00:58:00,210 --> 00:58:02,910 Dave Jones: Well, I'm trying to put it into the I haven't had 909 00:58:02,910 --> 00:58:07,200 much coding time this way. But I'm trying to put that into the 910 00:58:07,770 --> 00:58:11,820 the API calls them actually, we're already generating the, 911 00:58:12,270 --> 00:58:18,120 the lists the JSON lists for those, but now return them in 912 00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:23,100 the, in the actual endpoints for podcast, data. So like, when you 913 00:58:23,100 --> 00:58:25,860 request a feed, it would also show you the pod roll. Okay. 914 00:58:25,890 --> 00:58:29,490 Okay. Right, or the pod roll that that feed is producing, and 915 00:58:29,490 --> 00:58:30,000 it's bandwidth. 916 00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:32,460 Adam Curry: And I guess the question is, how will Daniel J. 917 00:58:32,460 --> 00:58:35,820 Lewis be able to use this to create some magical stats that 918 00:58:35,820 --> 00:58:38,040 he can sell to people? That's 919 00:58:38,340 --> 00:58:41,130 Dave Jones: his job, as I'm not doing his job for him? Right 920 00:58:41,130 --> 00:58:41,370 now? 921 00:58:41,460 --> 00:58:42,750 Adam Curry: I'm just curious if you have any thoughts. 922 00:58:43,470 --> 00:58:47,730 Dave Jones: I mean, he, he can, he can suck it in and then, you 923 00:58:47,730 --> 00:58:50,460 know, start started slicing and dicing and the way he does, he's 924 00:58:50,460 --> 00:58:54,780 got it. If anybody needs more stuff in here, like if you if 925 00:58:54,780 --> 00:58:58,140 you look at those lists, as you said, Daniel, so it made me 926 00:58:58,140 --> 00:59:02,250 think of iTunes IDs. If people need iTunes IDs in there, oh, I 927 00:59:02,250 --> 00:59:03,630 Adam Curry: see what you're saying, Hey, can I hand that 928 00:59:03,630 --> 00:59:05,670 off? Yeah, let me 929 00:59:05,670 --> 00:59:07,890 Dave Jones: know. Because it any the more data that's in there, 930 00:59:07,890 --> 00:59:10,230 the less requests they have, they don't have to just turn 931 00:59:10,230 --> 00:59:14,250 around and hit the API to get it. I'm also doing something for 932 00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:20,880 John, John Booth over transistor, he contacted me 933 00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:23,910 about some, some stuff with POD roll. So I'm doing some stuff 934 00:59:23,910 --> 00:59:26,970 for him. And I'll, I'll talk about that. I think it's gonna 935 00:59:26,970 --> 00:59:31,710 be a new, there's gonna be a new end point for just saying, 936 00:59:32,610 --> 00:59:38,640 Here's a batch of feed IDs. Give me all the current metadata for 937 00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:42,420 all of them. Yeah, and if I can get that to work, right, it 938 00:59:42,420 --> 00:59:45,150 might also solve Daniels problem because Daniel asked for the 939 00:59:45,150 --> 00:59:50,040 iTunes lookup endpoint support multiples right? In a might be 940 00:59:50,040 --> 00:59:53,340 able to combine those two. The way it's funny the way so the 941 00:59:53,340 --> 00:59:59,010 way it works in our database, is we have an apple table and then 942 00:59:59,010 --> 01:00:03,420 we have a newsfeeds table. Now the news feeds table contains 943 01:00:03,450 --> 01:00:12,750 all the podcast feeds. And the apple table contains metadata 944 01:00:12,750 --> 01:00:17,910 that is specific to what the way this thing exists in apple. And 945 01:00:17,910 --> 01:00:20,040 then we have a linkage between the two. So when there's an 946 01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:25,680 iTunes ID in newsfeeds table, it links to that record in the 947 01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:31,770 Apple table. So it can get a little weird because like, like 948 01:00:31,770 --> 01:00:35,340 the at the low level at the underlying level, the where the 949 01:00:35,340 --> 01:00:38,670 endpoints call the low level functions to actually get the 950 01:00:38,670 --> 01:00:42,030 stuff out of the database. It's actually two different 951 01:00:42,030 --> 01:00:48,060 functions. So the podcast by feed ID endpoint, calls a 952 01:00:48,060 --> 01:00:54,750 function called Get feeds by ID three. And that just pulls does 953 01:00:54,750 --> 01:00:59,550 a it does a query on the news feeds table with a whole bunch 954 01:00:59,550 --> 01:01:02,340 of joins for other tables to bring in to point out the 955 01:01:02,370 --> 01:01:08,610 specific data, then, that if you do pod the hit the API endpoint 956 01:01:08,610 --> 01:01:13,500 called podcast by iTunes ID, it actually doesn't request on the 957 01:01:13,500 --> 01:01:18,480 Apple table and joins in all the rest of it. So it's not 958 01:01:19,080 --> 01:01:20,220 Adam Curry: quite a service. 959 01:01:21,450 --> 01:01:24,540 Dave Jones: Yes, just because you can do something with like, 960 01:01:26,460 --> 01:01:28,740 just because you can make something work on the normal 961 01:01:28,740 --> 01:01:32,550 side doesn't mean that it's just a straight like copy paste over 962 01:01:32,550 --> 01:01:37,380 to the other like the the sequels to SQL statements are a 963 01:01:37,380 --> 01:01:42,330 really very different. So it takes like brainpower to, to 964 01:01:42,510 --> 01:01:45,090 say, Okay, this is what I'm doing over here. And now for the 965 01:01:45,090 --> 01:01:48,930 iTunes ID endpoints, I've got to convert that to this equivalent 966 01:01:48,930 --> 01:01:52,230 thing over here. It's not always a straightforward is, is it? 967 01:01:53,610 --> 01:01:55,890 Adam Curry: Bringing up another point, I want to make sure that 968 01:01:55,950 --> 01:02:00,990 Daniel and Sam are both heard activity streams. This isn't 969 01:02:01,710 --> 01:02:05,910 when I hear someone saying no one listens to me. Like, I hear 970 01:02:05,910 --> 01:02:08,430 you, I hear you. So I've obviously I've looked up 971 01:02:08,430 --> 01:02:14,580 activity streams. This is a web standard. So this is supposed to 972 01:02:14,580 --> 01:02:19,680 be the fix for everything. I'm not understanding. Do you have 973 01:02:19,680 --> 01:02:23,370 an opinion on this? Or, you know, I know Sam has baked this 974 01:02:23,370 --> 01:02:26,700 into pod fans, and they've got 30 activity streams, which as 975 01:02:26,700 --> 01:02:30,300 far as I know, is like more like a started kind of like web based 976 01:02:30,300 --> 01:02:30,810 stuff. 977 01:02:32,730 --> 01:02:37,500 Dave Jones: Yes, well, activity streams is the activity streams 978 01:02:37,500 --> 01:02:42,360 is related to the JSON LD JSON LD, which is a way to sort of 979 01:02:42,360 --> 01:02:54,090 schematized JSON. And bring is sort of like a JSON LD is to is 980 01:02:54,090 --> 01:02:58,980 to JSON, sort of what XML was to HTML. 981 01:03:00,180 --> 01:03:02,130 Adam Curry: Okay, gotcha. Yeah, gotcha. 982 01:03:02,670 --> 01:03:04,770 Dave Jones: It's a lot. That's not an you know that that 983 01:03:04,770 --> 01:03:07,920 analogy breaks down. But that's about as close as I can get 984 01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:12,720 right now. It's, it's a way to take a schema. And say, because 985 01:03:12,750 --> 01:03:16,290 inherently, JSON is schema lists, it's a serialization 986 01:03:16,290 --> 01:03:17,640 object serialization, right? 987 01:03:17,670 --> 01:03:19,500 Adam Curry: But but it's the point here, because you know, 988 01:03:19,530 --> 01:03:22,680 this supposedly is some magic potion. If everyone just did 989 01:03:22,680 --> 01:03:25,260 activity streams, we'd have cross app comments, we have 990 01:03:25,260 --> 01:03:27,600 booster grams going back and forth, and I just don't 991 01:03:27,600 --> 01:03:30,990 understand it. Is there, does anyone run their own servers, 992 01:03:30,990 --> 01:03:34,080 their central servers, it just everyone puts a file into their 993 01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:37,290 feed? This is kind of the information I'm not gonna I 994 01:03:37,290 --> 01:03:40,320 Dave Jones: mean, activity streams, activity streams is an 995 01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:43,500 activity pub, I think I've mentioned there on the message 996 01:03:43,500 --> 01:03:45,720 on there, they're two sides of the same coin. I mean, activity 997 01:03:45,720 --> 01:03:52,020 streams is the sort of the baseline of the way activity pub 998 01:03:52,320 --> 01:03:56,730 gets pushed around. So you can say, you know, an AI activity 999 01:03:56,730 --> 01:04:02,820 pub defines a set of, of endpoints and things like this, 1000 01:04:02,820 --> 01:04:06,000 where it's like, okay, you can find this data here, you can 1001 01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:09,120 find this other data here. There's an inbox and outbox and 1002 01:04:09,120 --> 01:04:13,590 actor. And here's where they live. activity streams is the 1003 01:04:13,590 --> 01:04:20,640 actual protocol by which those actions take place. So, I mean, 1004 01:04:20,640 --> 01:04:23,010 you really, it's hard to separate the two from one 1005 01:04:23,010 --> 01:04:28,260 another. In the in, in the sense of, like, what things look like 1006 01:04:28,260 --> 01:04:31,110 in the real world. When you're interacting with Mastodon and 1007 01:04:31,110 --> 01:04:33,450 stuff, you're interacting with activity pub and activity 1008 01:04:33,450 --> 01:04:41,880 streams at the same time. So when do you know Sam's Sam's 1009 01:04:41,910 --> 01:04:45,240 took the same a similar approach to what Benjamin Bellamy did 1010 01:04:45,780 --> 01:04:52,560 with Casta pod and said, Okay, well, activity streams and 1011 01:04:52,560 --> 01:04:57,870 activity. Pub are the social, you know, the Open Social 1012 01:04:57,870 --> 01:05:02,010 standard, and there's a A certain you know, object, verb 1013 01:05:02,010 --> 01:05:06,720 subject language that happens. And that fits what we sort of do 1014 01:05:06,720 --> 01:05:11,790 in podcasting, it's a person is a person, the actor, following 1015 01:05:11,850 --> 01:05:15,180 the act, you know, which is the action, a podcast, which is the 1016 01:05:15,180 --> 01:05:20,790 subject, I mean, like this, the model fits for what podcasting 1017 01:05:20,790 --> 01:05:24,090 is. So you can sort of take that activity stream idea and lay it 1018 01:05:24,090 --> 01:05:29,760 on top of podcasting, and you could see how it works. So 1019 01:05:29,760 --> 01:05:31,950 that's what Benjamin Bellamy did with caste bodies, like let's 1020 01:05:31,950 --> 01:05:36,870 just embrace that, that, that that model and build our thing 1021 01:05:36,870 --> 01:05:41,700 around activity streams in, but then expose it with activity 1022 01:05:41,700 --> 01:05:44,580 pub, so that is compatible with Mastodon and all these other 1023 01:05:44,580 --> 01:05:49,830 things. And, you know, Sam, Sam did the same thing. And it's not 1024 01:05:49,830 --> 01:05:54,270 a bad idea. I mean, it's, it's good. The bridge that I'm 1025 01:05:54,270 --> 01:05:58,800 building that I haven't had much time to work on this past week. 1026 01:06:00,090 --> 01:06:04,950 As mean, it's just my goal is just to get it initially 1027 01:06:04,950 --> 01:06:08,730 compatible with activity, productivity pub, right. So 1028 01:06:08,730 --> 01:06:12,030 there's follow up. And excuse me, bless, 1029 01:06:12,060 --> 01:06:15,000 Adam Curry: good. commuting time. I'm sorry, I tried to get 1030 01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:15,240 there. 1031 01:06:18,090 --> 01:06:23,520 Dave Jones: So, but but activity streams, that that idea sort of 1032 01:06:23,520 --> 01:06:28,650 that model is, yeah, I mean, I think it works. It's just a 1033 01:06:28,650 --> 01:06:30,120 matter of how you build it out. 1034 01:06:30,150 --> 01:06:32,220 Adam Curry: I mean, what's interesting is that just cross 1035 01:06:32,220 --> 01:06:35,610 app comm it's just no app developers care. They have they 1036 01:06:35,610 --> 01:06:38,070 have, you know, everyone has some kind of implementation. 1037 01:06:38,070 --> 01:06:41,520 It's in there. There's no, there's no, you know, seamless 1038 01:06:41,520 --> 01:06:44,700 way to do it. And it just doesn't seem to be some things 1039 01:06:44,700 --> 01:06:48,660 you, you just can't force it. If if if the app devs aren't doing 1040 01:06:48,660 --> 01:06:50,940 it, then it's just not gonna happen. Doesn't matter what you 1041 01:06:50,940 --> 01:06:52,410 choose? Well, 1042 01:06:52,470 --> 01:06:55,080 Dave Jones: I get I get inspired by stuff like this. I'm glad 1043 01:06:55,080 --> 01:07:01,500 that like Benjamin and Sam. Oh, thank you very PP. Yeah, it's an 1044 01:07:01,590 --> 01:07:05,340 object actor, target asset object actor subject. Yes, 1045 01:07:05,340 --> 01:07:10,770 target. So the, I mean, I liked this idea. Because if it works, 1046 01:07:10,800 --> 01:07:15,960 and it becomes a really nice experience, then then you have 1047 01:07:16,080 --> 01:07:21,960 you know, Sam has an app, cast a pod is a platform, excuse me a 1048 01:07:21,960 --> 01:07:27,930 hosting platform. Now we have to now Yeah, and then you have then 1049 01:07:27,930 --> 01:07:31,590 you have the fediverse over here that is commenting and 1050 01:07:31,590 --> 01:07:35,220 interacting with this stuff. Now you have three good sets of 1051 01:07:35,220 --> 01:07:40,350 examples. And other apps can now have this rich expand, you have 1052 01:07:40,350 --> 01:07:45,990 mini pub from John Spurlock. I guess what I'm trying to say is 1053 01:07:45,990 --> 01:07:49,590 the the activity pub activity, you know, world is getting built 1054 01:07:49,590 --> 01:07:54,270 around us. Like as, as we speak, there's been a lot of people 1055 01:07:54,270 --> 01:07:57,990 that have, you know, been have been kind of irritated by the 1056 01:07:57,990 --> 01:08:02,430 slowness of it. But it is building itself. Yeah. And, and 1057 01:08:02,430 --> 01:08:06,120 you could choose if you look around a year from now, and 1058 01:08:06,120 --> 01:08:09,960 you're like, Oh, this is interesting. There's a lot of 1059 01:08:09,960 --> 01:08:13,320 pain. And this is a lot of stuff out there. And you know, oh, it 1060 01:08:13,320 --> 01:08:17,580 only takes it only takes a little bit a little bit of code 1061 01:08:17,580 --> 01:08:21,660 to and now all of a sudden, I've opened up this interrupt between 1062 01:08:22,290 --> 01:08:28,200 my podcast app and and what Sam's doing over here with with 1063 01:08:28,200 --> 01:08:32,220 boost, and I can follow this action and I can, I can now 1064 01:08:32,220 --> 01:08:36,570 benefit from seeing things over there. And oh, the bunch of 1065 01:08:36,570 --> 01:08:39,660 people subscribing to this podcast on pod fans. I can I can 1066 01:08:39,660 --> 01:08:42,570 trend that in my thing or show comments. Or 1067 01:08:43,469 --> 01:08:45,479 Adam Curry: to be honest, if I just look at pod verse and I 1068 01:08:45,479 --> 01:08:48,959 look at our show, you know, which I always make the route 1069 01:08:48,959 --> 01:08:54,449 post your your board meeting post. And so you know from the 1070 01:08:54,449 --> 01:08:59,009 last show underneath you is Spurlock and then Alex gates, 1071 01:08:59,039 --> 01:09:03,179 and then 33 over 10 or head. I mean, this is all Mastodon 1072 01:09:03,179 --> 01:09:05,759 comments, but they show up in the app. It's pretty cool. You 1073 01:09:05,759 --> 01:09:09,239 just have no way to interact from the app. That's that's the 1074 01:09:09,239 --> 01:09:11,819 main that's the main problem I have is like why can't I just 1075 01:09:11,819 --> 01:09:13,829 reply here and the app seems 1076 01:09:13,830 --> 01:09:16,140 Dave Jones: to end if you guys see me if you go to our website 1077 01:09:16,140 --> 01:09:18,540 and go down and look at into an episode and do 1078 01:09:18,570 --> 01:09:21,510 Adam Curry: Oh, yeah, of course it all tons of comments. 1079 01:09:22,170 --> 01:09:24,930 Dave Jones: It is right there. I mean, this is it's all there for 1080 01:09:24,930 --> 01:09:25,650 the taking. 1081 01:09:27,030 --> 01:09:28,950 Adam Curry: Yeah, when everybody's busy, everybody's 1082 01:09:28,950 --> 01:09:30,150 busy. Everyone's busy. 1083 01:09:30,570 --> 01:09:33,210 Dave Jones: But But see, that's my point is stuff is getting 1084 01:09:33,210 --> 01:09:38,130 built. It is. You know, it's that and we knew this we you 1085 01:09:38,130 --> 01:09:41,520 know, we I think we talked about this like a year ago, we started 1086 01:09:41,520 --> 01:09:45,840 talking about how the the low hanging fruit was, was plucked. 1087 01:09:45,840 --> 01:09:47,250 Yeah. Now the 1088 01:09:47,250 --> 01:09:49,650 Adam Curry: hard now the harder now the real work starts. 1089 01:09:50,429 --> 01:09:53,819 Dave Jones: Yeah, because the hard stuff involves protocols, 1090 01:09:54,359 --> 01:09:56,969 and protocols. Protocols are harder than markup. 1091 01:09:58,290 --> 01:10:01,500 Adam Curry: Well, it's a golden age. For us in podcasting, 1092 01:10:02,130 --> 01:10:05,730 because we are the future being built right now that everything 1093 01:10:05,730 --> 01:10:10,140 else is old hat. You it's all gonna happen. It's all it's all 1094 01:10:10,170 --> 01:10:14,040 it's people will become more and more aware. People already are I 1095 01:10:14,040 --> 01:10:16,680 mean, it's just podcasters need to tell their audiences. That's 1096 01:10:16,680 --> 01:10:18,240 all. And it's happening. 1097 01:10:19,230 --> 01:10:21,360 Dave Jones: They have I've got something on my list ask you 1098 01:10:21,360 --> 01:10:26,610 about. Okay. And this is the image copyright thing with that 1099 01:10:27,180 --> 01:10:32,670 James had written up, you are an expert in this area, because 1100 01:10:32,670 --> 01:10:37,020 you, you have six, did you bring the first loss successful 1101 01:10:37,020 --> 01:10:40,170 lawsuit about Creative Commons? or Yes, about you? Yes, sued 1102 01:10:40,170 --> 01:10:42,690 people in one when it comes to image copyright infringement? 1103 01:10:42,720 --> 01:10:46,350 Specifically? Yes. Do you have thoughts on this whole thing? 1104 01:10:48,390 --> 01:10:51,510 Adam Curry: If that's not quite the same as the as the issue 1105 01:10:51,510 --> 01:10:57,630 with the Creative Commons lawsuit that I mounted. This is 1106 01:10:57,630 --> 01:11:02,820 very unique. The United States has smartly, I think, a whole 1107 01:11:02,820 --> 01:11:07,380 bunch of protections for exactly this. I mean, what this reminded 1108 01:11:07,380 --> 01:11:12,150 me of, and, you know, James, got it. And we had a little back and 1109 01:11:12,150 --> 01:11:16,140 forth. Because, you know, in Australia, I guess there's a lot 1110 01:11:16,140 --> 01:11:18,870 of things you don't have, and one of them is, you know, a very 1111 01:11:18,870 --> 01:11:22,440 clear way for, you know, a copyright copyright takedown, 1112 01:11:22,440 --> 01:11:26,340 there's a process. You know, we're, we're members, so, you 1113 01:11:26,340 --> 01:11:29,580 know, like six bucks a year. And then if someone finds something 1114 01:11:29,580 --> 01:11:34,140 that we're surfacing, and it's copyrighted, you know, I would 1115 01:11:34,140 --> 01:11:36,660 personally say, hey, once you go over those guys, because they're 1116 01:11:36,660 --> 01:11:39,360 posting it, but if you want, we'll take it down, you know, no 1117 01:11:39,360 --> 01:11:42,060 problem. And there's no, there's no lawsuit involved. What this 1118 01:11:42,060 --> 01:11:46,320 really reminded me of, is, there was a guy who worked for me, my, 1119 01:11:46,440 --> 01:11:51,600 my company thinks new ideas. And this is in the 90s for what's 1120 01:11:51,600 --> 01:11:56,130 his name, but doesn't actually doesn't matter. And he became 1121 01:11:57,180 --> 01:12:01,860 incredibly wealthy. In the porn business. He had. 1122 01:12:02,370 --> 01:12:04,230 Dave Jones: I've heard you've talked about this guy. Yeah, he 1123 01:12:04,230 --> 01:12:05,760 had moved to like LA, he had 1124 01:12:05,760 --> 01:12:08,460 Adam Curry: Malibu he had the house in Malibu. He had the 1125 01:12:08,670 --> 01:12:14,010 Ferraris he had, you know, his wife was riding horses all day. 1126 01:12:14,250 --> 01:12:17,850 And they had, like, the real upscale porn, 1127 01:12:18,030 --> 01:12:20,850 Dave Jones: by the end of Bitcoin was a Bitcoin, no, no, 1128 01:12:20,850 --> 01:12:23,220 no, no, real upscale 1129 01:12:23,280 --> 01:12:28,440 Adam Curry: porn, tie end, high end stuff, like beautifully 1130 01:12:28,440 --> 01:12:32,490 shot, you know, etc, beautiful models, the whole thing. And, 1131 01:12:33,090 --> 01:12:35,880 and I was just, I'm just talking about that. And he kind of 1132 01:12:35,880 --> 01:12:41,310 explains his business, which is not really selling porn to 1133 01:12:41,310 --> 01:12:46,560 people. It's copyright lawsuits. And the way it would work is, if 1134 01:12:46,560 --> 01:12:50,700 someone had downloaded usually a torrent or a movie from some 1135 01:12:50,700 --> 01:12:55,410 file, you know, they they would be snooping IP addresses and 1136 01:12:55,410 --> 01:12:58,860 boom, they'd send you a note and say, Hey, you clearly downloaded 1137 01:12:58,860 --> 01:13:03,930 this porn. It's ours and $5,000, or we're going to sue you, and 1138 01:13:03,930 --> 01:13:06,570 you really don't want that to be out in public, do you? And 1139 01:13:06,570 --> 01:13:11,010 that's how they made their money. No way. Yes. That's how 1140 01:13:11,010 --> 01:13:15,810 they made their money. And a lot of it because everyone's like, I 1141 01:13:15,810 --> 01:13:18,900 mean, it's kind of the, you know, these days is a funny one, 1142 01:13:18,900 --> 01:13:22,410 once you get an email says, I saw you I've hijacked your 1143 01:13:22,410 --> 01:13:25,050 computer. I saw what you were doing now. Are there anybody 1144 01:13:25,050 --> 01:13:28,740 give me a Bitcoin? Yeah, so we've all seen that. But this 1145 01:13:28,770 --> 01:13:32,160 this was real. I mean, they would basically blackmail and 1146 01:13:32,160 --> 01:13:36,960 then top notch lawyers who would do this all day long. You know, 1147 01:13:36,960 --> 01:13:41,310 do 10 a day, no more has 50,000 bucks, and people would do it 1148 01:13:41,310 --> 01:13:43,620 like, Oh, crap, you know, I don't want anybody to know that 1149 01:13:43,620 --> 01:13:47,940 I was wrong. Especially not that porn, you know, whatever. Yeah, 1150 01:13:48,000 --> 01:13:52,890 so that it wreaked a bit of that to me. Now, it was for I 1151 01:13:52,890 --> 01:13:55,950 realized it was 450 Australian dollars, like Mach Come on. 1152 01:13:55,950 --> 01:13:57,270 That's like a hammer. 20 1153 01:13:57,270 --> 01:14:00,360 Dave Jones: bucks. It's like a Big Mac. Yeah. Yeah. That's, 1154 01:14:00,390 --> 01:14:01,440 that's an Andrew Jackson. 1155 01:14:02,220 --> 01:14:06,270 Adam Curry: So and obviously, I think it's good that the James 1156 01:14:06,270 --> 01:14:11,970 wrote this up. I mean, it's, this is this is not something 1157 01:14:11,970 --> 01:14:17,580 that happens in America and I guess, bod, pod news is a LLC is 1158 01:14:17,580 --> 01:14:22,050 a US company. So he got out of it that way. But you know, 1159 01:14:22,050 --> 01:14:25,350 there's all kinds of to me, this is just a shyster. And I would 1160 01:14:25,350 --> 01:14:27,420 have been like, oh, yeah, I really want you to come and see. 1161 01:14:27,420 --> 01:14:30,240 I don't care. I mean, we've had when we had that guy who was 1162 01:14:30,240 --> 01:14:33,930 like, I'm representing Fox News, and you're breaking copyright. 1163 01:14:33,930 --> 01:14:36,630 And I said, Okay, boat King, just show me how you represent 1164 01:14:36,630 --> 01:14:39,150 Fox News. He never came back with that. And then he come 1165 01:14:39,150 --> 01:14:43,470 back, you know, some some time later. Like, I You gotta get 1166 01:14:43,470 --> 01:14:46,560 this. This is this is no copyright violation. And we're 1167 01:14:46,560 --> 01:14:48,690 happy to take it down. But you got to show me that you actually 1168 01:14:48,690 --> 01:14:52,320 represent the owner of this work. And I don't know how we 1169 01:14:52,320 --> 01:14:55,290 resolve that. But he went away. He never did. He's never came 1170 01:14:55,290 --> 01:14:58,530 back. He just gave up on us. So there's a lot of the shysters 1171 01:14:58,530 --> 01:14:59,730 out there. Well, 1172 01:14:59,730 --> 01:15:04,950 Dave Jones: it's Like, is it a? Is it a lid? You know that this 1173 01:15:04,980 --> 01:15:13,980 does that comes down to? Is it legal? Yes. Is it ethical? No. I 1174 01:15:13,980 --> 01:15:19,050 mean, like this is not legal doesn't mean that it's ethical 1175 01:15:19,050 --> 01:15:22,920 Adam Curry: doesn't make the world go round. Porn porn and IP 1176 01:15:22,920 --> 01:15:25,590 addresses makes the world go round. That's how you blast in 1177 01:15:25,590 --> 01:15:29,250 Malibu. That's how you get the place of Malibu. So that 1178 01:15:29,250 --> 01:15:31,260 Dave Jones: whole thing, that whole scam, though, that has 1179 01:15:31,260 --> 01:15:36,450 evolved to actual recording of things now subnet that because, 1180 01:15:36,450 --> 01:15:41,130 uh, you know, I do cybersecurity a lot for my day job. And a 1181 01:15:41,130 --> 01:15:44,850 recent recent thing that I was the conference that I was in was 1182 01:15:44,850 --> 01:15:48,390 talking about how this that whole scam where you get the 1183 01:15:48,390 --> 01:15:51,780 letter saying, I you know, I got pictures of you, you know, that 1184 01:15:51,810 --> 01:15:55,080 that has evolved to where now it's a little bit of a 1185 01:15:55,080 --> 01:15:59,730 combination between pig butchering, and that so now you 1186 01:15:59,730 --> 01:16:07,170 get contacted, and they're like, in some fake hot girl will chat 1187 01:16:07,170 --> 01:16:11,580 you up right lot for a while and get you to actually record 1188 01:16:11,580 --> 01:16:14,910 yourself. I don't know, you know, wagon or whatever and send 1189 01:16:14,910 --> 01:16:15,900 it to to 1190 01:16:16,110 --> 01:16:19,320 Adam Curry: her him and this is going on at your office. No, 1191 01:16:19,650 --> 01:16:22,650 Dave Jones: no, no, no, no, no, no, no, this is this is the new 1192 01:16:22,650 --> 01:16:25,860 global scan. Oh, okay. So then in his kitchen, you know who 1193 01:16:25,860 --> 01:16:28,410 it's catching? Of course, it's catching teenage boy. Yes, 1194 01:16:28,440 --> 01:16:34,620 obviously. And they, they record you? And or excuse me, you 1195 01:16:34,620 --> 01:16:37,890 record yourself and send it to them like a dick pic type thing? 1196 01:16:37,920 --> 01:16:41,250 Oh, good. Then they're like, oh, you know, check this out. I'm 1197 01:16:41,250 --> 01:16:43,410 gonna send this to all your friends on Facebook unless you 1198 01:16:43,440 --> 01:16:48,420 give me $200 In the $200 is specifically 1199 01:16:50,160 --> 01:16:52,890 Adam Curry: is what is what they think that kid can afford? Yes, 1200 01:16:52,920 --> 01:16:55,290 Dave Jones: exactly. They're like, Okay, we can't do so much 1201 01:16:55,290 --> 01:16:59,070 that they're that they're gonna freak out and not be able to get 1202 01:16:59,070 --> 01:17:01,530 the money we do just enough where they could probably scrape 1203 01:17:01,530 --> 01:17:05,490 it together and send it to us. And there was one example of a 1204 01:17:05,490 --> 01:17:08,700 guy that got arrested it was doing this scam. He was making 1205 01:17:08,730 --> 01:17:13,230 millions off this. I mean, whatever in like 100 a day. 1206 01:17:13,440 --> 01:17:13,830 Whenever 1207 01:17:13,830 --> 01:17:16,350 Adam Curry: I get any of those emails I send it I reply back. 1208 01:17:16,380 --> 01:17:18,690 You owe me a Bitcoin. Have you seen that thing? It's got an 1209 01:17:18,690 --> 01:17:27,120 elbow. Give me a break. You owe me for looking at it. No 1210 01:17:27,120 --> 01:17:32,730 copyright owner. I'm not that sick. All right, I have first of 1211 01:17:32,730 --> 01:17:35,370 all, thank you Dame Jennifer for registering modern podcast 1212 01:17:35,370 --> 01:17:38,760 apps.com. She heard me saying I'm boost the grand ball to 1213 01:17:38,760 --> 01:17:41,640 modern podcast app. And she's gonna go register that thank 1214 01:17:41,640 --> 01:17:48,030 you. Of course, that forwards to our app section chyron dear old 1215 01:17:48,030 --> 01:17:52,290 chyron has an issue with with a Shem. And this was an 1216 01:17:52,290 --> 01:17:55,980 interesting and I finally dug into it like okay, now I 1217 01:17:55,980 --> 01:18:02,790 understand what he's talking about. So he used for his buzz 1218 01:18:02,850 --> 01:18:09,420 sprout feed for the value block he used fountain. And I guess so 1219 01:18:09,420 --> 01:18:12,180 fountain as the Shem, which is basically the same thing as the 1220 01:18:12,180 --> 01:18:15,630 podcaster wallet with the difference. And I don't know if 1221 01:18:15,630 --> 01:18:18,600 you can do that with the podcast or wallet.com. But with fountain 1222 01:18:18,600 --> 01:18:24,900 you can set value blocks per episode. Correct. Did you know 1223 01:18:24,900 --> 01:18:25,320 this? 1224 01:18:27,390 --> 01:18:29,130 Dave Jones: In fountain? Yes, I 1225 01:18:29,130 --> 01:18:32,070 Adam Curry: did. Yes. So they're writing to the to I guess they 1226 01:18:32,070 --> 01:18:35,490 have write permissions. And they'll write b or whatever 1227 01:18:35,490 --> 01:18:38,880 splits chyron wants per episode, they'll write that to the value 1228 01:18:38,880 --> 01:18:39,270 block. 1229 01:18:40,380 --> 01:18:42,570 Dave Jones: is they have a party there in the partner APIA. 1230 01:18:42,660 --> 01:18:46,920 Adam Curry: Right, exactly. So now chyron wants to move. He 1231 01:18:46,920 --> 01:18:51,900 wants to move his feed. But and I guess he wants to move to a 1232 01:18:51,900 --> 01:18:55,800 host that has you know that has it all native in the feed? Now 1233 01:18:55,800 --> 01:19:00,600 he's stuck. So the question is, why was he stuck? Because he 1234 01:19:00,600 --> 01:19:04,050 doesn't he doesn't have a feed that he doesn't have the 1235 01:19:04,050 --> 01:19:07,530 information. There's no feed that he can look at even and 1236 01:19:07,530 --> 01:19:10,950 say, Oh, this is this is all the value blocks I had for every 1237 01:19:10,950 --> 01:19:11,850 single episode. 1238 01:19:12,360 --> 01:19:15,660 Dave Jones: It would be in the index. Yeah. Yes. But 1239 01:19:15,660 --> 01:19:18,000 Adam Curry: then but he has to recreate every single one of 1240 01:19:18,000 --> 01:19:22,590 those one by one. He needs to he needs to do that anyway, right. 1241 01:19:22,770 --> 01:19:26,910 You know, he wants to so his question is, can he export a 1242 01:19:26,910 --> 01:19:30,420 feed that has all the value blog, let's just say for 1243 01:19:30,420 --> 01:19:34,500 argument's sake, he wants to self host Okay, all right. So, 1244 01:19:34,500 --> 01:19:39,600 he needs a feed that has all of his value blocks in there should 1245 01:19:39,600 --> 01:19:40,410 that be certainly 1246 01:19:40,410 --> 01:19:42,690 Dave Jones: can do a feed so they can do a feed import? 1247 01:19:42,720 --> 01:19:46,770 Adam Curry: Correct. So is that something that we should offer? 1248 01:19:48,600 --> 01:19:51,810 Which by the way is is an intro is an interesting feature, you 1249 01:19:51,810 --> 01:19:56,070 know, download your feed as it is from the index is 1250 01:19:56,070 --> 01:19:56,580 interesting. 1251 01:19:58,830 --> 01:20:01,110 Dave Jones: That's an that is, I 1252 01:20:01,110 --> 01:20:03,600 Adam Curry: mean, especially let's say your host blows up and 1253 01:20:03,600 --> 01:20:08,310 just goes away or whatever, I have a perpetual backup, or is 1254 01:20:08,850 --> 01:20:10,980 that something fountain should provide since they're providing 1255 01:20:10,980 --> 01:20:12,210 the shim functionality? 1256 01:20:14,280 --> 01:20:16,680 Dave Jones: Well, I mean, I guess ideally found sheets 1257 01:20:16,710 --> 01:20:19,500 should provide it. But that's, you know, we're, 1258 01:20:20,070 --> 01:20:23,430 Adam Curry: we're first we'd like to facilitate. Yeah, 1259 01:20:23,430 --> 01:20:25,140 Dave Jones: I mean, we're good. We're good guys. 1260 01:20:26,250 --> 01:20:29,490 Adam Curry: Speak for yourself. Dave Jones. You owe me five 1261 01:20:29,490 --> 01:20:31,440 grand. Hey, I saw your IP address. 1262 01:20:33,090 --> 01:20:37,710 Dave Jones: Yeah, yes. Good for you. Yeah, I mean, we could do 1263 01:20:37,710 --> 01:20:43,500 that. Yeah, that'd be we could we could export an XML of just 1264 01:20:43,500 --> 01:20:49,830 sort of the basic, sort of, like, reconstruct a feed. If you 1265 01:20:49,830 --> 01:20:53,010 need, you know, like, hey, I need a feed of this, right? 1266 01:20:53,220 --> 01:20:55,530 Yeah, we could, we could do that. I mean, I can build it. 1267 01:20:55,560 --> 01:20:58,830 Adam Curry: Which brings me to my final point for this board 1268 01:20:58,830 --> 01:21:03,210 meeting. No. OPML. And, um, 1269 01:21:03,270 --> 01:21:05,070 Dave Jones: are you gonna, are you gonna? Are you gonna bust my 1270 01:21:05,070 --> 01:21:06,030 chops for No, 1271 01:21:06,060 --> 01:21:07,890 Adam Curry: no, no, no, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask you a 1272 01:21:07,890 --> 01:21:11,550 question, a philosophical question. Oh, my favorite can so 1273 01:21:11,550 --> 01:21:18,090 OPML is the most misunderstood format in the world. affirmed. 1274 01:21:18,150 --> 01:21:22,740 Yes. And, and this, and this kind of came to me when I saw 1275 01:21:23,640 --> 01:21:30,180 Christopher icing who he was publishing an OPML file of the, 1276 01:21:30,180 --> 01:21:32,880 you know, a day's worth of pod pings, which I'm like, this is 1277 01:21:32,880 --> 01:21:38,910 cool. So I go to import that OPML in my freedom controller, 1278 01:21:38,910 --> 01:21:42,630 and it basically just shows me a whole list of empty links, 1279 01:21:42,630 --> 01:21:48,000 there's nothing in there. And OPML has been OPML is, which is 1280 01:21:48,000 --> 01:21:51,120 outline processor Markup Language. If people follow the 1281 01:21:51,120 --> 01:21:57,060 spec, it is a very powerful, powerful format that we could 1282 01:21:57,060 --> 01:22:02,580 use for so much more than just subscription lists. You know, 1283 01:22:02,580 --> 01:22:11,040 I'm saying, and you could export lots of basically your data. You 1284 01:22:11,040 --> 01:22:13,620 know, it was like the idea of take your data with you, it will 1285 01:22:13,620 --> 01:22:17,670 be much more than just your, than just your subscriptions. It 1286 01:22:17,670 --> 01:22:21,510 could be, you know, your, your wallets. It could be all kinds 1287 01:22:21,510 --> 01:22:24,870 of stuff we could put in there. And there's, you know, I think 1288 01:22:24,870 --> 01:22:28,050 you and I have always seen future possibilities for OPML as 1289 01:22:28,050 --> 01:22:33,750 a format for all kinds of social activities. Yes. Is it worth 1290 01:22:33,990 --> 01:22:36,900 telling everybody please go look at the spec and do it right. Or 1291 01:22:36,900 --> 01:22:39,300 is it is there so much misinformation out there that 1292 01:22:39,300 --> 01:22:40,350 it'll just never happen? 1293 01:22:41,400 --> 01:22:42,540 Dave Jones: Well, he's doing it wrong, 1294 01:22:42,570 --> 01:22:46,800 Adam Curry: everybody, everybody does it wrong. I mean, if I if I 1295 01:22:46,860 --> 01:22:51,330 take any, any OPML export from any app, and I want to import it 1296 01:22:51,330 --> 01:22:55,800 into a proper OPML Outliner, which never works. 1297 01:22:57,900 --> 01:22:59,880 Dave Jones: Yeah, yeah, you're right. I mean, 1298 01:23:01,260 --> 01:23:03,630 Adam Curry: never will. Not a single one of them. 1299 01:23:07,290 --> 01:23:11,970 Dave Jones: I mean, OPML is, people. The biggest issue with 1300 01:23:11,970 --> 01:23:17,580 OPML is that it's married to RSS in a way that's wrong. People 1301 01:23:17,580 --> 01:23:21,570 think that OPML is just an RSS subscription list. Yeah, that's 1302 01:23:21,570 --> 01:23:25,080 right. It'd be a Mel's not it's not it's OPML is its own thing. 1303 01:23:25,080 --> 01:23:29,280 It existed before. RSS subscription lists were a thing. 1304 01:23:29,490 --> 01:23:33,360 Our sister scription lists were just a use case for OPML. But 1305 01:23:33,360 --> 01:23:38,370 OPML itself is, is a completely independent self self says, you 1306 01:23:38,370 --> 01:23:45,210 know, sufficient markup language. And I don't know, I 1307 01:23:45,210 --> 01:23:49,890 mean, I don't know where the I don't know where to put that. 1308 01:23:50,550 --> 01:23:52,770 Adam Curry: I just wanted to bring it up, you know, because 1309 01:23:52,800 --> 01:23:55,980 I'll tell you, here's what I find with OPML. I do all my show 1310 01:23:55,980 --> 01:24:00,600 notes. In an outliner, on the freedom controller, I publish an 1311 01:24:00,630 --> 01:24:04,860 HTML, and I publish an OPML. And because I've consistently for 1312 01:24:04,860 --> 01:24:09,780 about 10 years, published an OPML being at.io exists, you 1313 01:24:09,780 --> 01:24:12,540 know, there's been search engines built. And if you look 1314 01:24:12,540 --> 01:24:16,560 at if you look at an OPML file, from no agenda, as an example, 1315 01:24:16,710 --> 01:24:22,170 from clips, to articles, offline versions of articles, all of it 1316 01:24:22,170 --> 01:24:26,760 is all beautifully organized in an XML format happens to be OPML 1317 01:24:27,120 --> 01:24:31,620 it's collapsible, it's such a rich format. There's so much 1318 01:24:31,620 --> 01:24:35,640 that people could do with it. And I don't know maybe, maybe 1319 01:24:35,640 --> 01:24:39,240 it's that that that train has left the station. I don't know. 1320 01:24:39,270 --> 01:24:41,730 I've always loved it. I've always thought that's so cool. 1321 01:24:42,630 --> 01:24:43,080 You know? 1322 01:24:44,070 --> 01:24:49,050 Dave Jones: Yeah, ever when we need us, you know, we just need 1323 01:24:49,050 --> 01:24:54,210 the sheer Europian mail for for podcasting again, and that's 1324 01:24:54,210 --> 01:24:59,430 probably something that because, well, this you know what, I'm 1325 01:24:59,430 --> 01:25:00,210 gonna put that on If 1326 01:25:01,680 --> 01:25:05,070 Adam Curry: we put in, I don't know, eight years worth of work 1327 01:25:05,580 --> 01:25:09,480 into the freedom controller, eight years worth, and we had s 1328 01:25:09,480 --> 01:25:15,390 OPML, we had this whole social construct, which, which 1329 01:25:15,420 --> 01:25:20,310 integrates seamlessly with RSS feeds, it updates automatically 1330 01:25:20,310 --> 01:25:23,490 when there's an update from from, you know, an RSS feed, 1331 01:25:23,490 --> 01:25:28,380 which, you know, is inherently wasn't even a podcast feed, you 1332 01:25:28,380 --> 01:25:31,320 know, just a blog post. I mean, there's so much beauty in there. 1333 01:25:32,310 --> 01:25:32,790 That is 1334 01:25:32,790 --> 01:25:34,680 Dave Jones: going to be my that is going to be my Christmas 1335 01:25:34,680 --> 01:25:42,330 present to you as a share your OPML endpoint in the API. Okay, 1336 01:25:42,360 --> 01:25:45,840 let's, let's do it. Let's do it. Let's to, let's do that. Here's, 1337 01:25:45,870 --> 01:25:49,950 here's how we could do it. We make it we make it where we it 1338 01:25:49,950 --> 01:25:56,490 will accept an OPML file. So you're in your in, you're in pod 1339 01:25:56,490 --> 01:26:02,520 fans, and you and you export your feed list and want to in an 1340 01:26:02,520 --> 01:26:05,850 option can pop up and say, Do you want to share this 1341 01:26:05,850 --> 01:26:10,770 anonymized feed list with the podcast index? There you go. We 1342 01:26:10,770 --> 01:26:15,930 say yes, they send this they send us the XML through through 1343 01:26:15,930 --> 01:26:20,460 an endpoint post opera post action. Uh huh. We take it and 1344 01:26:20,460 --> 01:26:27,690 we interpret it. We decode the the OPML into a pod role. 1345 01:26:29,940 --> 01:26:35,820 Basically, we save the OPML. But then we but we treat it as a pod 1346 01:26:35,820 --> 01:26:40,050 role. So that you so it's a way for people to share their 1347 01:26:40,050 --> 01:26:41,070 subscription list 1348 01:26:41,100 --> 01:26:44,520 Adam Curry: I got I like it. I like it. What do you think? I 1349 01:26:44,520 --> 01:26:48,510 like? Is that my Christmas present? Yeah. Could I have that 1350 01:26:48,510 --> 01:26:51,300 I have the sweater. Still 2024 1351 01:26:51,570 --> 01:26:54,780 Dave Jones: Next. Next Christmas. already sent you your 1352 01:26:54,780 --> 01:26:57,300 Christmas razor for this year. You did you get it yet? 1353 01:26:57,450 --> 01:27:01,110 Adam Curry: Yeah. You actually. Now I feel like it's like a 1354 01:27:01,110 --> 01:27:03,150 heel. You sent me a Christmas present? Well, 1355 01:27:03,150 --> 01:27:05,100 Dave Jones: that's my strategy every year is to send you one 1356 01:27:05,100 --> 01:27:06,060 and make you feel like crap. 1357 01:27:06,090 --> 01:27:08,490 Adam Curry: Well worked again. I haven't even received it. And I 1358 01:27:08,490 --> 01:27:12,240 feel like crap. I feel like crap in general today, just cuz I'm 1359 01:27:12,240 --> 01:27:15,480 sick. And now you've made me feel even sicker. Thanks, nuts 1360 01:27:15,480 --> 01:27:18,720 and everybody else and lots of Christmas presents. Yes, you do. 1361 01:27:18,750 --> 01:27:20,580 I know. You're good at that. You're 1362 01:27:20,580 --> 01:27:22,500 Dave Jones: gonna like it. I just hope you have a DVD player. 1363 01:27:24,120 --> 01:27:25,980 Adam Curry: Yeah, I got I got something that yeah, I got a 1364 01:27:25,980 --> 01:27:29,310 computer that will play that. Can't wait. Okay. Can't wait to 1365 01:27:29,310 --> 01:27:32,610 see what you've dug up. Now. Dave Jones. As 1366 01:27:32,610 --> 01:27:36,780 Dave Jones: long as you get a DVD player good. Yes. I do. I 1367 01:27:36,780 --> 01:27:39,990 guess now porn is not to porn from your guest premiere, buddy. 1368 01:27:40,020 --> 01:27:41,670 Okay. All right. Good. Good. 1369 01:27:41,880 --> 01:27:45,450 Adam Curry: Because you get sued for that. $5,000 That's how it 1370 01:27:45,450 --> 01:27:52,380 goes. Five grand, maybe five grand. Ah, shall we say thanks 1371 01:27:52,380 --> 01:27:56,130 for people? Yeah, sure. We've been getting a couple of booths 1372 01:27:56,130 --> 01:28:00,990 here. As we move towards the holidays. Quite an odd isn't 1373 01:28:00,990 --> 01:28:02,370 nice booths here. Oh, hey, Kim. 1374 01:28:02,370 --> 01:28:03,810 Dave Jones: Can I ask you something real quick Jeff, come 1375 01:28:03,810 --> 01:28:07,920 before you do that. What? I'm trying to get James on the show 1376 01:28:07,950 --> 01:28:11,640 because we usually have him on for Christmas week. What what 1377 01:28:11,640 --> 01:28:14,310 day, do you what's your Christmas look like? 1378 01:28:14,790 --> 01:28:17,130 Adam Curry: Oh, what was that? We're gonna have to coordinate 1379 01:28:17,130 --> 01:28:18,750 that. I got to take a look. Yeah, 1380 01:28:18,750 --> 01:28:21,360 Dave Jones: that's what I figured. Yeah. You're gonna be 1381 01:28:21,840 --> 01:28:23,910 you might be busy with family. Oh, 1382 01:28:23,910 --> 01:28:28,290 Adam Curry: no, we have events you know. But it's all in and 1383 01:28:28,290 --> 01:28:31,890 around town. We're not traveling. But we do have event 1384 01:28:31,890 --> 01:28:35,730 we've got events, we got dinners and we got all kinds of stuff so 1385 01:28:35,760 --> 01:28:36,600 we figured we 1386 01:28:36,600 --> 01:28:38,670 Dave Jones: always have to do him at night anyway because it 1387 01:28:38,670 --> 01:28:41,310 timezone site so we could do it like one night Why doesn't 1388 01:28:41,310 --> 01:28:42,810 Adam Curry: he just get up in the middle of the night? 1389 01:28:44,970 --> 01:28:46,500 Dave Jones: If he's willing three o'clock in the morning? 1390 01:28:46,530 --> 01:28:49,170 Yeah, come on. He might not be coherent if he wants 1391 01:28:49,170 --> 01:28:52,830 Adam Curry: to be on the mighty podcasting 2.0 boardroom that'd 1392 01:28:52,830 --> 01:28:59,550 be a fun show. Thank you Dobby das are says blue. 7500 1393 01:28:59,730 --> 01:29:03,690 Satoshis. And he reminds me correctly. Ainsley. Costello 1394 01:29:03,690 --> 01:29:07,440 feed is up. Yeah, this is good. This is the live concert. This 1395 01:29:07,440 --> 01:29:12,210 is going to be to December 20 December 21 mandovi. Das is such 1396 01:29:12,210 --> 01:29:17,100 a hero. He he got the feed up he got the you know, connected the 1397 01:29:17,100 --> 01:29:21,960 stream. And he then went and checked every single podcast app 1398 01:29:22,080 --> 01:29:25,710 to make sure that you know what worked and what didn't guess 1399 01:29:25,710 --> 01:29:29,760 what everybody's got work to do. That was on test day. Yeah, test 1400 01:29:29,760 --> 01:29:33,300 day. Exactly. And so here he has links for pod fans for pod 1401 01:29:33,300 --> 01:29:40,140 verse. Podcast guru curio Kassar beautiful. So you can find that 1402 01:29:40,950 --> 01:29:44,850 Well, I guess you could find this in the in the chapters if 1403 01:29:44,850 --> 01:29:49,200 you go to the chapters, not not the Table of Contents where you 1404 01:29:49,200 --> 01:29:52,080 can find it as flipped by at this very moment as I'm talking 1405 01:29:52,080 --> 01:29:56,220 about it. Thank you Dobby Das. Now Sam Sethi boostin laid over 1406 01:29:56,220 --> 01:30:00,000 there in the UK to two booths here to boosted ramps and 1000s 1407 01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:05,040 SATs I'll go in reverse order activity streams are used. Oh, 1408 01:30:05,040 --> 01:30:08,370 it's actually the same. He boasts booster twice. Same, same 1409 01:30:08,370 --> 01:30:11,910 message. Thanks, Sam. activity streams are user generated 1410 01:30:11,910 --> 01:30:16,500 events. The user owns this just as the podcasts or owns the RSS. 1411 01:30:16,800 --> 01:30:20,700 All apps could publish activity streams to the podcast index. 1412 01:30:20,970 --> 01:30:24,990 Then like Saturn, I could see the action verb boost. And now 1413 01:30:24,990 --> 01:30:26,580 we have cross app comments. 1414 01:30:28,740 --> 01:30:31,920 Dave Jones: Yep, yeah, it's yes. The protocol for for user 1415 01:30:31,920 --> 01:30:34,170 actions. Yep. Right. Okay, 1416 01:30:34,380 --> 01:30:38,430 Adam Curry: so we just everyone needs to build that in Okay done 1417 01:30:38,430 --> 01:30:39,060 taking care of 1418 01:30:40,830 --> 01:30:42,570 Dave Jones: these rights. I mean, like, it's essentially 1419 01:30:42,570 --> 01:30:47,310 the, the, you know, his ideas boost that it integrates with 1420 01:30:47,310 --> 01:30:49,530 booster grams and weight because booster gram is just an action 1421 01:30:49,530 --> 01:30:53,010 that I users taking. So you can represent that with an X with an 1422 01:30:53,010 --> 01:30:57,030 activity stream event. Right? Would you absolutely for sure. 1423 01:30:57,960 --> 01:31:01,710 Adam Curry: We have Dred Scott. Even though he I think he's 1424 01:31:01,710 --> 01:31:04,950 supposed to be on a long weekend with his wife, but I don't know 1425 01:31:04,980 --> 01:31:10,140 he's Treb 45678 Thank you, brother. That's actual money 1426 01:31:10,140 --> 01:31:14,430 these days. With the bitcoin price salty crayon checks in 1427 01:31:14,430 --> 01:31:17,670 with a row of ducks had to reboot since pod verse is under 1428 01:31:17,670 --> 01:31:19,200 duress. Oh, no. 1429 01:31:19,800 --> 01:31:20,610 Dave Jones: What's wrong? I 1430 01:31:20,610 --> 01:31:22,800 Adam Curry: don't know. I don't know it's under duress, health 1431 01:31:22,800 --> 01:31:25,650 karma boost for the pod father. Thank you new chair boosts for 1432 01:31:25,650 --> 01:31:29,820 the pod sage. Hopefully the new chair is beef milkshakes. 35 by 1433 01:31:29,820 --> 01:31:39,570 five in the pipe. Mike Newman checks in Draper boosts 77,777 1434 01:31:39,570 --> 01:31:44,250 SATs and no notes off the crayon again with 4040 and there's 1435 01:31:44,940 --> 01:31:49,320 comic strip blogger. Oh, love this 10,000 SATs wishing you a 1436 01:31:49,320 --> 01:31:55,350 Merry crip crypt mus he says crypto must and a happy new fork 1437 01:31:55,530 --> 01:31:57,990 Bitcoiners yo CSB. 1438 01:31:58,620 --> 01:32:01,590 Dave Jones: Alright GCSB with the Engel with the English puns, 1439 01:32:01,590 --> 01:32:02,460 yes, yes. 1440 01:32:02,460 --> 01:32:04,920 Adam Curry: Crazy. What do you have on your list? Dave? That 1441 01:32:04,920 --> 01:32:06,810 was that was all the live boosts that came in? 1442 01:32:07,260 --> 01:32:10,860 Dave Jones: Well, I've got I've got Oscar and the boys of 1443 01:32:10,860 --> 01:32:13,740 fountains in us $200 from PayPal. 1444 01:32:13,830 --> 01:32:16,500 Adam Curry: Oh boy. Thank you so much. Oh 1445 01:32:16,770 --> 01:32:20,820 Unknown: Sakala 20 is Blaze only Ambala Thank 1446 01:32:20,820 --> 01:32:22,350 Adam Curry: you. Those things help 1447 01:32:22,920 --> 01:32:25,410 Dave Jones: me in the office this this podcast room was so 1448 01:32:25,410 --> 01:32:31,020 nice now with the new chairs with the assessment some time 1449 01:32:31,020 --> 01:32:34,770 this couple of nights ago rearrange and everything got 1450 01:32:35,550 --> 01:32:37,440 rearranged the reason I rearranged because I finally got 1451 01:32:37,440 --> 01:32:40,800 a UPS battery backup unit. Oh, this is way to go, man. Yeah, 1452 01:32:40,830 --> 01:32:43,800 yeah. ordered that thing you sent it. It's pretty 1453 01:32:43,800 --> 01:32:47,160 Adam Curry: powerful. It'll run a lot of gear for for a while. 1454 01:32:47,730 --> 01:32:50,790 Dave Jones: Yeah, yeah. If it starts beeping at me, I'm going 1455 01:32:50,790 --> 01:32:53,520 to rip the stupid vapor out of it. I'm going to D solder that I 1456 01:32:53,520 --> 01:32:53,850 haven't 1457 01:32:53,910 --> 01:32:55,950 Adam Curry: actually haven't heard it. I don't know if my 1458 01:32:55,950 --> 01:33:00,510 beeps or not. It's yeah, it's an it's an a server rack cabinet. 1459 01:33:01,980 --> 01:33:03,720 Dave Jones: So I haven't heard you gotta write yet a 19 inch 1460 01:33:03,720 --> 01:33:04,080 rack. I 1461 01:33:04,080 --> 01:33:06,120 Adam Curry: do. I got I got one of those that you sit on the 1462 01:33:06,120 --> 01:33:11,580 floor. So it's like it's like a quarter rack height. And yeah, I 1463 01:33:11,580 --> 01:33:16,110 got all my stuff in there. Yeah, I got the got the five gigabit 1464 01:33:16,290 --> 01:33:20,010 fiber router in there. And I've got my start nine in there. 1465 01:33:21,150 --> 01:33:23,850 Dave Jones: I know drip? drips that heck, you already have a 1466 01:33:23,850 --> 01:33:27,720 UPS I tiga. Right? No, no. So 1467 01:33:27,720 --> 01:33:30,210 Adam Curry: I have the generator. So so when the power 1468 01:33:30,270 --> 01:33:33,570 goes out, there's always this 25 second delay in cases just a 1469 01:33:33,570 --> 01:33:38,490 brownout. So the studio stays on. And then the generator kicks 1470 01:33:38,490 --> 01:33:41,070 in. Everything's beautiful. Amen. 1471 01:33:41,070 --> 01:33:44,790 Dave Jones: I'm good now gold. Yeah. Dumb. I'm uptight. So. 1472 01:33:45,900 --> 01:33:49,860 Thank you, Oscar. Appreciate that. $200 Yes, thank you that's 1473 01:33:50,010 --> 01:33:56,070 very meaningful. Jean Everett 2222. Through fountain he just 1474 01:33:56,070 --> 01:33:56,220 says 1475 01:33:56,220 --> 01:34:00,450 Adam Curry: boost boost boost. Gene 1476 01:34:00,450 --> 01:34:03,900 Dave Jones: bein 20 to 20 tubes erode ducts through cast Maddox 1477 01:34:03,900 --> 01:34:07,440 as a podcast app that integrates into download you to integrate 1478 01:34:07,440 --> 01:34:11,400 in a download, downloaded YouTube video would be awesome 1479 01:34:11,400 --> 01:34:13,980 as most YouTube downloads ended up being ad free. 1480 01:34:14,940 --> 01:34:17,910 Adam Curry: Now that I saw, there was a lot going on about 1481 01:34:17,910 --> 01:34:20,640 this. I saw Mitch was looking at it. And Alex gave said Well, 1482 01:34:20,640 --> 01:34:22,890 here's how you do it. And I don't know if anyone actually 1483 01:34:22,920 --> 01:34:24,240 took any action on that. 1484 01:34:25,470 --> 01:34:28,470 Dave Jones: Yeah, from what I heard from what Alex said, it's 1485 01:34:28,470 --> 01:34:31,830 just at the heart of it's just an HLS stream, so it should work 1486 01:34:33,870 --> 01:34:37,290 Adam Curry: without anchor, so I guess we'll see any app that 1487 01:34:37,290 --> 01:34:41,670 will do this. Ainsley Costello video feed will also be able to 1488 01:34:41,670 --> 01:34:46,620 do this with a YouTube item. Suppose as the reason Okay, all 1489 01:34:46,620 --> 01:34:51,600 right, well, maybe I'll try it. Do it. I mean, how can I screw 1490 01:34:51,600 --> 01:34:54,240 up my feeds any worse than I already do? I mean, everything's 1491 01:34:54,240 --> 01:34:55,290 a mess. You've 1492 01:34:55,290 --> 01:34:57,240 Dave Jones: had such success with lit I think you should try 1493 01:34:57,240 --> 01:34:58,320 this thing. It's just harder. 1494 01:34:59,490 --> 01:35:01,950 Adam Curry: Listen Let is really working for me is John 1495 01:35:01,950 --> 01:35:04,260 Spurlock's making fun of me. Like, 1496 01:35:05,130 --> 01:35:07,860 Dave Jones: what was your time zones? Your time zone? Yeah, 1497 01:35:07,860 --> 01:35:08,550 well, I 1498 01:35:08,550 --> 01:35:12,510 Adam Curry: mean, it's for me it's like this like AMPM is like 1499 01:35:12,510 --> 01:35:16,500 when I set it and then I don't check it and it's just, I need 1500 01:35:16,500 --> 01:35:19,080 to pay more attention. I need to pay more attention to it. It's 1501 01:35:19,080 --> 01:35:22,380 hilarious hilariously bad. Hey, some 1502 01:35:22,380 --> 01:35:24,690 Dave Jones: people are still posting on Mastodon will be live 1503 01:35:24,690 --> 01:35:28,140 in 15 minutes. So I think you're, you're already ahead of 1504 01:35:28,140 --> 01:35:33,390 the curve. Plus one to see this gene been 20 to 22. Another road 1505 01:35:33,390 --> 01:35:36,780 dose from Gene Benitez plus one to super chapters. And the way 1506 01:35:36,780 --> 01:35:40,050 that could integrate could be integrated with podcast hosts 1507 01:35:40,080 --> 01:35:43,770 existing chapter creation interfaces. It solves the UX 1508 01:35:43,770 --> 01:35:46,320 aspect in a very clean and simple way. Well, I 1509 01:35:46,320 --> 01:35:48,960 Adam Curry: didn't understand that at all. You remember super 1510 01:35:48,960 --> 01:35:52,350 chapters as we're Oh yes. Dovizioso super chapters. Yeah, 1511 01:35:52,380 --> 01:35:56,640 yeah. works beautifully. It's a great it's a great way to 1512 01:35:56,640 --> 01:35:57,600 explain it to people. 1513 01:35:58,650 --> 01:36:01,770 Dave Jones: So Brian of London 1948 Happy Hanukkah Brian. Yes. 1514 01:36:02,400 --> 01:36:05,970 He says to cast magic he says I hate it but I agree. Posh 1515 01:36:07,320 --> 01:36:11,010 podcasting 2.0 no agenda and fucking pivot. I can't help 1516 01:36:11,010 --> 01:36:11,340 myself. 1517 01:36:12,480 --> 01:36:15,690 Adam Curry: It's harsh, man. Yes, I can't help myself either. 1518 01:36:15,720 --> 01:36:20,490 I mean it's crazy how loyal I am to my hate Listen, which is 1519 01:36:20,490 --> 01:36:24,090 pivot it's it's unbelievable it's I'm very less like oh, it's 1520 01:36:24,090 --> 01:36:27,600 Tuesday. Oh it's Friday my hate listeners out yeah I can't wait. 1521 01:36:28,050 --> 01:36:29,010 isn't as 1522 01:36:29,520 --> 01:36:32,430 Dave Jones: I've got a new hate on the media as my I didn't have 1523 01:36:32,430 --> 01:36:33,060 a hate Listen 1524 01:36:33,090 --> 01:36:36,120 Adam Curry: well on the now. They had a repeat that a repeat 1525 01:36:36,120 --> 01:36:39,870 this midweek show. That was lame. I know. It was boring. 1526 01:36:39,870 --> 01:36:42,540 There's like from January on the media is a good hate. Listen. 1527 01:36:42,600 --> 01:36:44,100 And after the after the 1528 01:36:44,100 --> 01:36:48,840 Dave Jones: Trump thing. I'm like they've got he's gotten me 1529 01:36:48,840 --> 01:36:49,650 by the short hairs. 1530 01:36:49,710 --> 01:36:53,940 Adam Curry: I wish they were 2.0 boost them. I boost my hate. 1531 01:36:54,120 --> 01:36:59,520 Dave Jones: I would do that. Do 500 SATs a minute. Boost. Hey, 1532 01:36:59,670 --> 01:37:03,540 Adam Curry: what did I hear you now? 1001 SATs per minute? 1533 01:37:03,990 --> 01:37:06,390 Dave Jones: Yeah, you shamed me publicly shamed. 1534 01:37:06,420 --> 01:37:09,480 Adam Curry: I didn't shame you. I never said anything about it. 1535 01:37:09,540 --> 01:37:14,400 I have not mentioned my, my booths size at all on my stream 1536 01:37:14,400 --> 01:37:20,880 size at all. I have not streamed my my powerful stream. I have 1537 01:37:20,880 --> 01:37:27,270 not mentioned that at all. I keep I keep my support on the 1538 01:37:27,270 --> 01:37:28,140 QT. 1539 01:37:29,130 --> 01:37:32,370 Dave Jones: I'm your co host and if you publicly revealed that 1540 01:37:32,370 --> 01:37:37,440 you have a fat stream as to reveal the size of mastering 1541 01:37:37,440 --> 01:37:40,560 Adam Curry: but again, I didn't reveal that my stream was fat. 1542 01:37:41,250 --> 01:37:41,700 It got 1543 01:37:41,730 --> 01:37:44,220 Dave Jones: it got revealed. So I had to respond. So there's no 1544 01:37:44,220 --> 01:37:44,850 privacy 1545 01:37:44,850 --> 01:37:47,850 Adam Curry: anymore. You know, man, look at this. Look at the 1546 01:37:47,850 --> 01:37:49,350 fatness of that guy stream. 1547 01:37:51,180 --> 01:37:57,660 Dave Jones: Check out this enormous boost. RP 1984 4000 1548 01:37:57,660 --> 01:38:01,020 SATs to fountain says back in September I read a blog post 1549 01:38:01,020 --> 01:38:04,680 about set based advertising in response to Chris Fisher and a 1550 01:38:04,680 --> 01:38:08,400 discussion he had on office hours about the ad pocalypse 1551 01:38:08,580 --> 01:38:11,760 hitting podcasting by ideas similar to what you were talking 1552 01:38:11,760 --> 01:38:14,850 about and thought you maybe you'd like it. He has a link 1553 01:38:14,850 --> 01:38:19,500 here tools because it's like a blog post. Yeah, he says also 1554 01:38:19,500 --> 01:38:23,910 this is not a thought of it first boost. Many people thought 1555 01:38:23,910 --> 01:38:28,080 of it before I did PS 12345 Spaceballs boost is a boost 1556 01:38:28,080 --> 01:38:30,870 level over edubirdie network they even have for it. 1557 01:38:32,010 --> 01:38:34,140 Adam Curry: Spaceballs from the movie Spaceballs? I got it 1558 01:38:34,140 --> 01:38:37,140 Dave Jones: yeah, that was the 12345 was the combination I 1559 01:38:39,180 --> 01:38:43,410 Adam Curry: so I think that didn't fountain basically try 1560 01:38:43,410 --> 01:38:46,950 this. They tried to get the they would give people SATs for 1561 01:38:47,250 --> 01:38:51,210 listening to ads. I don't think it went anywhere. I think it 1562 01:38:51,210 --> 01:38:54,900 kind of petered out. So I'm not sure I'm not sure if I've never 1563 01:38:54,900 --> 01:38:57,870 really believed in that idea. Like, I'll let you know I'll 1564 01:38:57,870 --> 01:39:01,050 give you my time. I'll listen to your ads if you pay me I just 1565 01:39:02,100 --> 01:39:06,510 don't know this never quite felt right to me. I don't know. I've 1566 01:39:06,510 --> 01:39:08,640 never seen implementation. 1567 01:39:09,450 --> 01:39:13,290 Dave Jones: Karen it's mere mortals podcast 16292 fountains 1568 01:39:13,290 --> 01:39:15,510 has been awhile since I had an episode where I understood 1569 01:39:15,510 --> 01:39:18,600 almost nothing I guess are cool. 1570 01:39:20,460 --> 01:39:25,200 Adam Curry: Podcasts are cool. But I believe me I don't 1571 01:39:25,200 --> 01:39:29,160 understand either. chyron I'm just hanging on to Dave's 1572 01:39:29,160 --> 01:39:31,380 coattails. Rene 1573 01:39:31,500 --> 01:39:39,390 Dave Jones: nega paying three five to one sets through pod 1574 01:39:39,390 --> 01:39:44,580 verse he says we still have that stupid policy. Okay. All right. 1575 01:39:44,730 --> 01:39:47,610 That's interesting grammar says we still have that stupid taxes. 1576 01:39:48,000 --> 01:39:50,940 But the promise we could download not upload anything 1577 01:39:50,970 --> 01:39:53,460 anywhere except so oh him. I think he's talking about the 1578 01:39:53,970 --> 01:39:56,040 recordable media tax that you were talking about. 1579 01:39:56,070 --> 01:39:58,770 Adam Curry: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Wait, and so he's in Holland 1580 01:39:58,770 --> 01:40:02,550 right now They probably they probably don't pay for it they 1581 01:40:02,550 --> 01:40:06,240 do pay for it so we have this commies 1582 01:40:07,500 --> 01:40:10,200 Dave Jones: stupid taxes with the promise we could download 1583 01:40:10,200 --> 01:40:13,740 not upload anything anywhere except software then they said 1584 01:40:13,740 --> 01:40:16,950 no more downloading and still taxes on everything was storage 1585 01:40:16,950 --> 01:40:20,730 everything I still download of course yeah wow you criminal 1586 01:40:22,290 --> 01:40:24,450 Adam Curry: we got your IP address you gotta let her come 1587 01:40:24,450 --> 01:40:27,540 in here my lawyer five grand Karen 1588 01:40:27,690 --> 01:40:30,960 Dave Jones: again 2222 from curio carry caster from the mere 1589 01:40:30,960 --> 01:40:34,950 mortals podcast. He says sent an email just clarify my problem 1590 01:40:34,950 --> 01:40:37,320 from the last episode. Hope it helps. Yes it did. 1591 01:40:37,350 --> 01:40:39,120 Adam Curry: We've already fixed your problem. We're going to fix 1592 01:40:39,120 --> 01:40:40,470 it. Yeah, 1593 01:40:40,500 --> 01:40:45,540 Dave Jones: I will. I will put a XML export on the thingamajigger 1594 01:40:45,870 --> 01:40:49,320 Adam Curry: the thing in the JPI Yes, that's great. That's great 1595 01:40:49,320 --> 01:40:52,620 and Jaeger dot podcast and next thing you have a jigger, 1596 01:40:54,150 --> 01:40:57,780 Dave Jones: monthlies. We get to see pod verse $50. Thank you pod 1597 01:40:57,780 --> 01:41:03,960 verse. Mitch and Kreon. Brendon apod, page $25. Part gram $1. 1598 01:41:03,990 --> 01:41:09,960 Joseph maraca $5 Emilio Kendall, Molina $4, new media $1 and 1599 01:41:09,960 --> 01:41:15,270 basil Philip $25. Thank you, basil and Lauren ball. $24.20. 1600 01:41:15,270 --> 01:41:16,500 Thank you, Lauren. And that's our group. 1601 01:41:16,620 --> 01:41:18,750 Adam Curry: Yeah, we appreciate these. These are this is value 1602 01:41:18,750 --> 01:41:22,050 for value. We've been talking about it. This is a great 1603 01:41:22,050 --> 01:41:26,430 example of how value for value works. And the proof is in the 1604 01:41:26,430 --> 01:41:29,430 pudding. Yeah, we're smoking her own dope here. Let me go take a 1605 01:41:29,430 --> 01:41:33,300 look at that. Yes, Italico, the tally coin stuff, you can go to 1606 01:41:33,300 --> 01:41:36,750 podcast index.org. Down at the bottom, there's two links. One 1607 01:41:36,750 --> 01:41:42,840 is for your Fiat fun coupons. That's for the PayPal. Another 1608 01:41:42,840 --> 01:41:47,190 one is we'll take you to our on chain Support Portal, which no 1609 01:41:47,190 --> 01:41:52,320 one has used since October 27. But of course, what we really 1610 01:41:52,320 --> 01:41:54,780 want you to do is get a modern podcast app. Thank you, Dame 1611 01:41:54,780 --> 01:41:59,220 Jennifer modern podcast apps.com. Fill up your filler up 1612 01:41:59,220 --> 01:42:08,220 and boost SEO to your heart's delight. And does what? It it's 1613 01:42:08,220 --> 01:42:12,030 interesting to see I guess, just before we end here, I'm seeing 1614 01:42:12,060 --> 01:42:18,030 more and more apps start to integrate the breeze SDK. I'm 1615 01:42:18,030 --> 01:42:21,450 reading about not not our apps, but you know, general lightning 1616 01:42:21,450 --> 01:42:30,180 apps. And and man, is the Albey must really be growing fast. 1617 01:42:30,180 --> 01:42:32,070 Because you know, they're they're really trying to keep 1618 01:42:32,070 --> 01:42:35,160 everybody I guess under a million SATs in your wallet. 1619 01:42:35,670 --> 01:42:37,980 It's like, you know, please, we don't I guess they don't want 1620 01:42:37,980 --> 01:42:41,400 the responsibility, which I can totally understand. Yeah, for 1621 01:42:41,400 --> 01:42:45,330 Dave Jones: sure. I wonder, when do you think? Do you think 1622 01:42:45,330 --> 01:42:50,010 Royer? Somebody? He did a breeze SDK overview once before? Do you 1623 01:42:50,010 --> 01:42:53,460 think he'd be willing to do one just for the podcast developers? 1624 01:42:53,670 --> 01:42:55,770 Adam Curry: I would I think that would be fantastic. I know that 1625 01:42:55,770 --> 01:42:58,470 Steven bellows looked at it, but it's doesn't really work. Well, 1626 01:42:58,470 --> 01:43:01,770 for the PW A's. Yes, 1627 01:43:01,770 --> 01:43:04,020 Dave Jones: alpha first. Yeah, web apps are gonna be that's 1628 01:43:04,020 --> 01:43:04,830 gonna be tough. 1629 01:43:05,490 --> 01:43:06,450 Adam Curry: Why is that? 1630 01:43:07,770 --> 01:43:09,990 Dave Jones: Well, I mean, because you got you got to have 1631 01:43:09,990 --> 01:43:15,180 your keys and everything visible. Like, if you're if 1632 01:43:15,180 --> 01:43:17,640 you're a web only app, and you don't have a server back end, 1633 01:43:17,640 --> 01:43:20,520 you you can't, you've really essentially can't have any 1634 01:43:20,520 --> 01:43:24,780 secrets. No. You know what I mean? Because you because it's 1635 01:43:24,780 --> 01:43:26,760 all going to be visible somewhere. Because the only 1636 01:43:26,760 --> 01:43:30,930 thing there that the code that runs everything is right there 1637 01:43:30,930 --> 01:43:34,500 in the browser. So you can't hide it. So you can't he really 1638 01:43:34,500 --> 01:43:40,080 he can't even have like, like podcast index API tokens. It's 1639 01:43:40,080 --> 01:43:40,650 right there. 1640 01:43:40,680 --> 01:43:43,500 Adam Curry: I thought curio Kassar use the server. Maybe I'm 1641 01:43:43,500 --> 01:43:44,880 wrong. Yeah, 1642 01:43:44,880 --> 01:43:47,250 Dave Jones: Matthew, I'm not sure how he's doing it. But 1643 01:43:47,580 --> 01:43:50,640 that's just a general problem with PW A's and he may have like 1644 01:43:50,640 --> 01:43:52,980 one small back end server, but it might not be enough to do 1645 01:43:52,980 --> 01:43:56,010 sort of this for this level of processing. And 1646 01:43:56,010 --> 01:43:59,130 Adam Curry: actually, I thought that that lb was going to do an 1647 01:43:59,130 --> 01:44:04,410 integration with the breeze SDK. So maybe, maybe we still have to 1648 01:44:04,410 --> 01:44:11,790 ask well, first image we know we talked about if we get to the 1649 01:44:11,820 --> 01:44:16,830 Get out, guys. Yeah. I noticed that they didn't knock your door 1650 01:44:16,830 --> 01:44:19,770 down when you mentioned it before that like I got no time 1651 01:44:19,770 --> 01:44:24,450 for these podcasts. I hate to say hey, like no, do Nasir man 1652 01:44:24,510 --> 01:44:25,080 like come on 1653 01:44:28,680 --> 01:44:30,960 Dave Jones: I've got it. I made a note of mustard to myself. Do 1654 01:44:30,960 --> 01:44:31,230 you got 1655 01:44:31,230 --> 01:44:33,210 Adam Curry: a lot of notes? How are we going to how are we going 1656 01:44:33,210 --> 01:44:35,730 to finish out this year with all these notes there's so much to 1657 01:44:35,730 --> 01:44:36,240 do. 1658 01:44:37,590 --> 01:44:42,330 Dave Jones: See Bumi and more. It's one of the 12 more it says 1659 01:44:42,570 --> 01:44:42,840 that 1660 01:44:43,680 --> 01:44:47,220 Adam Curry: there's a number of more choices in our life. Okay, 1661 01:44:47,250 --> 01:44:47,460 all right. 1662 01:44:49,350 --> 01:44:50,850 Dave Jones: All right. I get that note we good? 1663 01:44:50,880 --> 01:44:52,200 Adam Curry: Yes. All right, brother. 1664 01:44:54,210 --> 01:44:57,570 Dave Jones: I wanted to say our hosting fees to like the end of 1665 01:44:57,570 --> 01:45:00,840 the year update on our hosting fees were current only paying 1666 01:45:00,870 --> 01:45:04,260 665 a month. Wow. Linode 1667 01:45:04,860 --> 01:45:07,230 Adam Curry: that's that's, that's up from what it was last 1668 01:45:07,230 --> 01:45:10,140 year, isn't it? Yeah, it's nearly 1669 01:45:10,140 --> 01:45:15,330 Dave Jones: 100 100 bucks. Yeah. And our Cloudflare bill a month 1670 01:45:15,330 --> 01:45:16,770 is 90 bucks. 1671 01:45:19,020 --> 01:45:20,160 Adam Curry: So that's not too bad. 1672 01:45:20,910 --> 01:45:23,190 Dave Jones: No, it's not bad. That's not bad. We've got some 1673 01:45:23,190 --> 01:45:25,020 other stuff in there. Like, you know, we got to pay lawyers and 1674 01:45:25,020 --> 01:45:27,390 accountants and all that good stuff. But yeah, that's our 1675 01:45:27,390 --> 01:45:30,030 primary. Those are those are two big ones. And 1676 01:45:30,060 --> 01:45:34,320 Adam Curry: and our notice I've been seeing is all the every 1677 01:45:34,380 --> 01:45:37,170 payment that goes to node stays on the node. We're pretty good 1678 01:45:37,170 --> 01:45:39,690 routing node, I think. Yeah. Oh, 1679 01:45:39,690 --> 01:45:42,180 Dave Jones: yeah. Forget about that. What how much is what's in 1680 01:45:42,180 --> 01:45:48,840 our bill? What's our bill? 202 voltage to voltage? Yeah, 30 1681 01:45:48,840 --> 01:45:50,550 years? Yes. 1682 01:45:50,550 --> 01:45:53,580 Adam Curry: A little more. Maybe? Yeah, I think it's at 1683 01:45:53,580 --> 01:45:55,680 least 100 bucks a month. Probably more. 1684 01:45:56,340 --> 01:46:00,480 Dave Jones: Because it because he like he had to like give us 1685 01:46:00,480 --> 01:46:02,340 bigger discs or something. Yeah, 1686 01:46:02,340 --> 01:46:05,940 Adam Curry: he had. Yes. All kinds of bigger stuff. We have a 1687 01:46:05,940 --> 01:46:09,210 very unique situation. It's like nobody has the amount of 1688 01:46:09,210 --> 01:46:15,180 transactions we have. It's It's outrageous. Insane. It's insane. 1689 01:46:16,260 --> 01:46:20,550 Dave Jones: Okay, did you know that are so every every 1690 01:46:20,550 --> 01:46:25,470 transaction that comes through our node, we sink down to a 1691 01:46:25,470 --> 01:46:29,640 MySQL database so that we can properly report our own taxes 1692 01:46:29,640 --> 01:46:33,840 and our oil and all that. I know you do that? Yeah. Yes. So we 1693 01:46:33,840 --> 01:46:36,630 have a cut every note every transaction that's ever come 1694 01:46:36,630 --> 01:46:39,120 through our lightning node, the pay podcast and this lightning 1695 01:46:39,120 --> 01:46:42,480 node we also have a copy in this MySQL database. Wow. Including 1696 01:46:42,480 --> 01:46:47,220 Adam Curry: all the to V records. Yes. Now that's that's 1697 01:46:47,220 --> 01:46:51,990 a data bundle. I'd like to mine that would be cool. 1698 01:46:52,770 --> 01:46:56,490 Dave Jones: It's where we is how we generate the V for the the 1699 01:46:56,490 --> 01:46:56,880 podcast. 1700 01:46:57,420 --> 01:47:00,810 Adam Curry: Toss. Yeah, yes, the top top stats. Let's see how 1701 01:47:00,810 --> 01:47:04,230 many tops do we have today? While we're at podcast index? 1702 01:47:04,650 --> 01:47:09,840 dot top. Let me see today. It is the top 119 1703 01:47:10,230 --> 01:47:12,900 Dave Jones: Nice. Yeah, it was 169 last week. 1704 01:47:13,380 --> 01:47:18,600 Adam Curry: I see this this reads almost like I love it. I 1705 01:47:18,600 --> 01:47:24,630 got the the Italian guy up in fourth place for you started 1706 01:47:24,630 --> 01:47:27,000 Yeah, yeah, I always started with that. All sudden, there's 1707 01:47:27,000 --> 01:47:30,270 all these Italians like posting on my Twitter like lawyer bla 1708 01:47:30,270 --> 01:47:32,790 bla bla, bla, bla, bla bla booster. Grand Ball. 1709 01:47:34,350 --> 01:47:35,700 Dave Jones: Solid Italian right there. 1710 01:47:37,650 --> 01:47:39,510 Adam Curry: This whole thing reads like boosted Grand Ball 1711 01:47:39,510 --> 01:47:43,200 Christmas comes but once a year, morning love from the door falls 1712 01:47:43,200 --> 01:47:48,300 bacon on my mind. Nice. Nice. So 1713 01:47:48,300 --> 01:47:51,510 Dave Jones: we have all those we have all those in the in the 1714 01:47:51,510 --> 01:47:54,810 database. And that database is now 21 gigs. 1715 01:47:55,500 --> 01:47:57,330 Unknown: Oh, cool. It's pretty big. 1716 01:47:59,070 --> 01:48:02,370 Dave Jones: That's 21 gigs of that's 21 gigs of nothing but 1717 01:48:02,370 --> 01:48:05,490 lightning transactions. Gotta love it. Gotta love it three 1718 01:48:05,490 --> 01:48:07,110 years with a lightning transaction. So 1719 01:48:07,140 --> 01:48:10,170 Adam Curry: do we archive that at a certain point or view? Move 1720 01:48:10,170 --> 01:48:14,580 it off into like, do send it to the mountain to tape tape drives 1721 01:48:14,580 --> 01:48:15,120 on the mountain. 1722 01:48:16,590 --> 01:48:20,550 Dave Jones: Iron Mountain mountain. That'd be fun at 1723 01:48:20,550 --> 01:48:23,520 Adam Curry: Costco. This everyone should know about this 1724 01:48:23,520 --> 01:48:30,150 Costco does a 14 terabyte drive they're selling a single disc 1725 01:48:31,050 --> 01:48:35,910 Seagate 14 terabyte drive for 149 bucks. 1726 01:48:36,750 --> 01:48:38,490 Dave Jones: Holy crap. 1727 01:48:38,520 --> 01:48:41,940 Adam Curry: That's that's that's pretty cheap, man. Oh, 1728 01:48:41,940 --> 01:48:44,340 Dave Jones: that's dirty for a 14 terabyte drive. Yeah. 1729 01:48:44,370 --> 01:48:47,880 external drive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 150 bucks. There it is. 1730 01:48:47,910 --> 01:48:52,830 Yeah. 149 Do you ever in your life, think that you would see 1731 01:48:52,830 --> 01:48:55,530 the day where we'd have 14 terabytes on a single disk? 1732 01:48:55,560 --> 01:48:58,620 Adam Curry: Well, considering my first hard drive was for my Mac 1733 01:48:58,620 --> 01:49:04,620 Plus, and it was an external 20 megabytes scuzzy drive, which 1734 01:49:04,620 --> 01:49:08,550 was, which was big. And I mean, that that that was like a, like 1735 01:49:08,550 --> 01:49:12,510 a school bag. That's how big it was. And this got the scuzzy 1736 01:49:12,510 --> 01:49:14,160 plug. My 1737 01:49:14,160 --> 01:49:16,890 Dave Jones: dad My dad did some work for IBM a long time ago. He 1738 01:49:16,890 --> 01:49:23,670 was an RPG as 400 programmer. Oh, yeah. And he got this. He 1739 01:49:23,670 --> 01:49:28,320 got this little girl some sort of little pin or something. It 1740 01:49:28,320 --> 01:49:36,870 was like a commemorative thing. And it was a one kilobyte chip. 1741 01:49:37,500 --> 01:49:42,600 That was like Waco, like static RAM or whatever, in a cold core 1742 01:49:42,600 --> 01:49:44,880 memory or something like that. It was like this one megabyte 1743 01:49:44,880 --> 01:49:48,840 chip encased in like, a hard blue side or something like 1744 01:49:48,840 --> 01:49:52,920 that. It was like this little novelty thing like this is this 1745 01:49:52,920 --> 01:49:56,700 is awesome. You know, like is one one megabyte. 1746 01:49:57,690 --> 01:49:58,440 Adam Curry: Amazing. 1747 01:49:58,830 --> 01:50:01,740 Dave Jones: Well The desk forever like you, you're looking 1748 01:50:01,740 --> 01:50:03,540 you just look at it. You're like, oh my god, that 1749 01:50:03,600 --> 01:50:07,560 Adam Curry: was one megabyte. Well, do you remember? In order 1750 01:50:07,560 --> 01:50:11,370 to download a picture that was one megabyte it would take 1751 01:50:12,060 --> 01:50:16,590 literally an hour I think was one megabyte to an hour. 1752 01:50:17,460 --> 01:50:19,710 Dave Jones: And you just hoped that it was a progressive JPEG. 1753 01:50:19,740 --> 01:50:24,420 Adam Curry: Yeah. So you could see the chick unveil the black 1754 01:50:25,920 --> 01:50:27,060 Dave Jones: lacing happens as 1755 01:50:27,690 --> 01:50:30,840 Adam Curry: exactly alright everybody now now we've gone too 1756 01:50:30,840 --> 01:50:33,000 far. Dave Have yourself a great weekend, brother. You going back 1757 01:50:33,000 --> 01:50:33,780 to the office? 1758 01:50:34,260 --> 01:50:37,680 Dave Jones: Yep. Okay. Get to film better man. Yeah. Oh, no, 1759 01:50:37,950 --> 01:50:39,150 no, actually, I 1760 01:50:39,960 --> 01:50:43,140 Adam Curry: I got a second wind here. That's good. No wonder 1761 01:50:43,140 --> 01:50:47,940 that smells so bad. No. Thank you all chat room. Thanks for 1762 01:50:47,940 --> 01:50:50,430 being here. Thank you for supporting us value to value 1763 01:50:50,430 --> 01:50:53,880 podcasting. 2.0 the board room comes back next week. See you 1764 01:50:53,880 --> 01:50:54,150 then. 1765 01:51:09,300 --> 01:51:13,860 Unknown: You have been listening to podcasting 2.0 Visit podcasts 1766 01:51:13,890 --> 01:51:17,910 index.org For more information, go podcast. 1767 01:51:19,710 --> 01:51:20,490 That's a wow